Fawning isn’t a flaw to fix. It is a brilliant survival response that can quietly shape your entire identity until you finally have the words for it.

In this episode, I sit down with clinical psychologist and author Ingrid Clayton for a conversation that I know will resonate deeply with so many of you. We talk about fawning, what it is, how it shows up, and why it’s so often misunderstood. If you’ve ever felt like you disappeared in a relationship or lost touch with your own needs just to keep someone else happy, you’re not alone. And chances are, your nervous system was doing exactly what it needed to do to keep you safe.

Ingrid shares her own story as a survivor of complex trauma, and how that experience shaped the work she does now. We explore the difference between trauma that’s tied to a single event and the kind that builds over time in ways that can be hard to name. We talk about what healing actually looks like, how to start reconnecting with yourself, how to recognize the patterns that no longer serve you, and how to hold space for the grief that sometimes comes with change.

This isn’t a conversation filled with quick fixes or five-step plans. It’s honest and validating. If you’ve ever asked yourself, “Why do I keep doing this?” or “What’s wrong with me?” I hope this episode helps you see that nothing about you is broken. There’s a reason for the patterns. And there’s also a way through.

Episode Breakdown:

00:00 Introduction

02:08 How Personal Experience with Trauma Shaped Dr. Ingrid Clayton’s Work

03:17 What Complex Trauma Really Looks Like

10:20 Fawning as a Smart and Adaptive Trauma Response

14:03 Why Codependency and People-Pleasing Miss the Point

20:20 Real-Life Examples of Fawning in Adulthood

27:20 Why Trauma-Informed Therapy Matters

30:10 Rebuilding a Relationship with Yourself

36:09 How Healing Can Change Your Closest Relationships

40:41 Dr. Clayton’s Message to Anyone Who Feels Broken

Links

Book: Believing Me https://amzn.to/4lkulGy

Website: https://www.ingridclayton.com/

Preorder ‘Fawning’ here: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/779579/fawning-by-dr-ingrid-clayton/

https://www.instagram.com/ingridclaytonphd/

Connect with Dr. Z: https://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/

https://www.zgrouptherapy.com/

https://www.instagram.com/dr.z_psychologist/

https://www.tiktok.com/@dr.z_psychologist

https://www.youtube.com/@DrJaimeZuckerman

Get my FREE breathing exercise here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/newsletter

Register for my on demand virtual courses here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/workshops

Order my workbooks! *Find Your Calm / Find Good Habits* http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/books

Shop my new Mindfully Messy hoodie here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/apparel

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Most people don’t realize how much of their relationship pain comes from patterns they never chose and beliefs they never questioned, and I’ve seen it over and over again.

In this episode, I’m joined by someone I’ve admired for a long time, relationship expert and author Jillian Turecki. Her new book, “It Begins With You: The Nine Hard Truths About Love That Will Change Your Life,” is the kind of work that doesn’t just offer advice. It asks you to look inward. We talk about the ways we lose ourselves in relationships, the lies we tell ourselves to keep people close, and what it really means to grow after heartbreak. What does healthy love even look like? How do we know when we’re giving too much? Why do so many of us feel like we have to convince someone to stay?

Jillian shares so much of her insight and experience in this conversation: why deal breakers matter, how our family stories shape our love lives, and what it actually means to make peace with the past. One of the most powerful takeaways for me was her perspective on forgiveness, and how letting go doesn’t always mean condoning someone’s behavior. Sometimes it just means refusing to carry the story anymore.

If you’ve ever felt stuck, questioned your worth in a relationship, or wondered why you keep ending up in the same kind of dynamic, this one’s for you. I hope it leaves you feeling seen… and more importantly, ready to take your power back.

Episode Breakdown:

00:00 Jillian Turecki and Her Work

03:14 The Importance of Self-Reflection in Relationships

06:00 Defining Healthy Love

08:49 Understanding Deal Breakers in Relationships

11:57 The Complexity of Relationship Dynamics

15:08 The Myth of Fairy Tale Love

18:01 The Challenge of Convincing Someone to Love You

20:59 Processing Breakups and Moving Forward

24:00 Making Peace with Your Parents

36:49 Final Thoughts and Words of Wisdom

Links

Connect with Jillian Turecki:

https://www.jillianturecki.com/book

https://www.instagram.com/jillianturecki/?hl=en

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jillian-on-love/id1640172049

Connect with Dr. Z: https://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/

https://www.zgrouptherapy.com/

https://www.instagram.com/dr.z_psychologist/

https://www.tiktok.com/@dr.z_psychologist

https://www.youtube.com/@DrJaimeZuckerman

Get my FREE breathing exercise here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/newsletter

Register for my on demand virtual courses here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/workshops

Order my workbooks! *Find Your Calm / Find Good Habits* http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/books

Shop my new Mindfully Messy hoodie here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/apparel

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Toxic relationships don’t usually start with obvious red flags. More often, they start with connection, someone who seems to really see you, who shows up in big ways, who makes you feel chosen. But over time, that connection can shift into something confusing, isolating, and hard to recognize for what it is.

I talk with Elizabeth Chambers, Host, Investigative Journalist and Executive Producer of the docuseries “Toxic,” about the psychological patterns behind abusive relationships - how they take shape, why they’re so easy to miss, and what keeps people from leaving. Elizabeth shares the stories of survivors she interviewed, many of whom came from loving, stable homes and never expected to end up in something harmful.

We also get into how culture plays a role. The fairytales we grow up with, the rom-com tropes, the magazines that taught us how to “get the guy” - they all send messages that can make it easier for abusers to gain trust and control. And when someone starts tailoring themselves to your vulnerabilities, mirroring your interests, slowly taking over the parts of your life that matter most, it rarely looks like abuse in the moment.

I talk through the tools I see used again and again in narcissistic relationships - love bombing, gaslighting, financial control - and how easy it is for good, smart people to get caught in them. And we explore what real support looks like when someone you care about is stuck in a relationship that’s hurting them.

This episode is a reminder to pay attention. To stay curious. To talk about the things we’re taught to keep private. Because awareness is the first step, and no one should have to figure it out alone.

Episode Breakdown:

00:00 Introduction to Narcissism and Healing

02:52 The Impact of Toxic Relationships

05:53 Recognizing Generational and Cultural Patterns

11:57 Why It’s So Hard to Leave

18:09 Love Bombing and Emotional Control

24:06 Red Flags and Manipulation Tactics

30:06 The Psychology Behind Abuse

34:25 Power, Intimacy, and Control

41:07 Communication and Relationship Imbalances

49:49 How Friends and Family Can Help

51:32 Breaking the Cycle for Future Generations

Links

Watch Toxic on Max: https://www.max.com/shows/toxic/33977981-2e30-45d2-98c6-3145f9c40b33

https://www.instagram.com/elizabethchambers/

Connect with Dr. Z: https://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/

https://www.zgrouptherapy.com/

https://www.instagram.com/dr.z_psychologist/

https://www.tiktok.com/@dr.z_psychologist

https://www.youtube.com/@DrJaimeZuckerman

Get my FREE breathing exercise here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/newsletter

Register for my on demand virtual courses here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/workshops

Order my workbooks! *Find Your Calm / Find Good Habits* http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/books

Shop my new Mindfully Messy hoodie here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/apparel

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Couples therapy isn’t always a safe space, especially when a narcissist is in the room.

I get asked about this constantly: “Should we try couples therapy?” If your partner has narcissistic traits or narcissistic personality disorder, my answer is no. In this episode, I explain why.

Too often, therapy turns into a performance, another platform for the narcissist to manipulate, charm the therapist, and flip the narrative. Instead of feeling supported, the person being harmed walks out feeling blamed, invalidated, and more confused than ever.

The truth is, most therapists aren’t trained to recognize the subtle patterns of narcissistic abuse. They might know the diagnosis from a textbook, but they miss the gaslighting, coercive control, and emotional manipulation happening right in front of them. I’ve seen how that leads to real harm.

If you’ve been to couples therapy and felt like something was off, or worse, felt like the problem, you’re not imagining it. You’re not overreacting. And you’re not alone.

In this episode, I break down why I never recommend couples therapy in these situations, and why individual support is not just more effective, but also safer.

Episode Breakdown:

00:00 Introduction

01:16 Why Couples Therapy Fails with a Narcissist

03:38 Therapists Often Miss the Signs of Narcissistic Abuse

08:16 How Narcissists Use Therapy as a Stage

10:48 Their Real Agenda Isn’t Healing

12:08 Toxic Behavior vs. Narcissistic Abuse

18:06 Why Speaking the Truth in Therapy Can Be Dangerous

21:08 When Therapy Advice Causes More Harm

24:55 Is There Any Benefit to Couples Therapy?

29:55 Why Individual Therapy Is the Safer Choice

33:00 Dr. Z’s Advice and How to Get Help

Links

Connect with Dr. Z: https://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/

https://www.zgrouptherapy.com/

https://www.instagram.com/dr.z_psychologist/

https://www.tiktok.com/@dr.z_psychologist

https://www.youtube.com/@DrJaimeZuckerman

Get my FREE breathing exercise here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/newsletter

Register for my on demand virtual courses here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/workshops

Order my workbooks! *Find Your Calm / Find Good Habits* http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/books

Shop my new Mindfully Messy hoodie here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/apparel

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

When a narcissist cheats, the affair often has little to do with love or connection. It’s about power.

In this episode, I sit down with psychotherapist Lauren LaRusso, LPC, LMHC, to unpack why narcissists have affairs and how their motivations are different from what most people expect. Why do they always seem to have someone waiting in the wings? Why is there so little remorse when they’re caught? And why does the person who’s been betrayed so often end up feeling like the one to blame?

Lauren and I talk about how narcissists use affairs to stay in control and protect their image. These betrayals aren’t usually about emotional disconnection. They’re about manipulation, dominance, and supply. We also get into what it’s like for the person on the receiving end: the self-doubt, the confusion, the isolation. And we talk honestly about why leaving is so complicated. Sometimes there are kids involved. Sometimes it’s about safety. Sometimes it’s about survival.

If you’ve been through this, or you’re still in it, I hope this conversation brings you clarity. You’re not imagining it. You’re not overreacting. And most importantly, you’re not alone.

Episode Breakdown:

00:00 Why Narcissists Cheat

03:25 What Counts as an Affair

04:52 Gender Differences in Infidelity

12:06 Can an Affair Stabilize a Marriage?

16:47 Why People Don’t Just Leave

23:24 Affairs in Narcissistic Relationships

27:38 The “Perfect” Narcissist and Secret Lives

30:10 Lack of Accountability

33:07 How Narcissistic Abuse Shows Up in Therapy

38:01 The Danger of Blaming the Betrayed Partner

40:07 Affairs as a Survival Strategy

42:03 Healing After Narcissistic Relationships

In honor of Mental Health Awareness Month, ALL virtual courses AND apparel on my website are 20% off for the month of MAY with CODE: MHAM20

Explore on-demand courses here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/workshops

Shop apparel here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/apparel

Links

Connect with Lauren LaRusso, LPC, LMHC:

website: www.theaffairconsultant.com

Instagram @LaurenLaRusso

Connect with Dr. Z: https://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/

https://www.zgrouptherapy.com/

https://www.instagram.com/dr.z_psychologist/

https://www.tiktok.com/@dr.z_psychologist

https://www.youtube.com/@DrJaimeZuckerman

Order my workbooks! *Find Your Calm / Find Good Habits* http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/books

Get my FREE breathing exercise here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/newsletter

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Family courts were designed to protect families. So why do so many survivors find themselves trapped by the very system that was supposed to protect them?

In this episode, I’m joined by Dr. Charlotte Proudman, a family law barrister and founder of Right to Equality. Charlotte has spent her career challenging the failures of the family court system, especially when it comes to cases involving domestic abuse, sexual coercion, coercive control, and parental alienation. We talk openly about the real impact these failures have on women and children, and why change is so urgently needed.

Why is coercive control still overlooked in custody cases? How did parental alienation turn into a legal weapon used by abusive parents? Charlotte shares powerful stories from her new book, “He Said, She Said,” and explains how family courts continue to mishandle allegations of sexual abuse and emotional violence.

This conversation pulls back the curtain on a system that too often silences the very people it should protect. Charlotte and I talk about what needs to happen for family courts to finally center the voices of survivors, and how we can push for the trauma-informed change that families deserve.

Episode Breakdown:

00:00 Introduction

02:22 Family Courts and Gender Equality

03:44 Systemic Failures in Addressing Domestic Abuse

08:07 Sexual Coercion and Coercive Control

16:07 Parental Alienation as a Legal Strategy

34:07 Mishandling of Child Sexual Abuse Allegations

40:04 Purpose of “He Said, She Said”

Links

Connect with Dr. Charlotte Proudman:

@drproudman on Instagram, X, and TikTok; https://www.charlotteproudman.com/team-4-1

(upcoming events for He Said She Said); https://www.amazon.co.uk/He-Said-She-Struggle-Justice/dp/1399612441Pre-order “He Said, She Said: Truth, Trauma and the Struggle for Justice in Family Court”

Connect with Dr. Z: https://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/

https://www.zgrouptherapy.com/

https://www.instagram.com/dr.z_psychologist/

https://www.tiktok.com/@dr.z_psychologist

https://www.youtube.com/@DrJaimeZuckerman

Get my FREE breathing exercise here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/newsletter

Register for my on demand virtual courses here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/workshops

Order my workbooks! *Find Your Calm / Find Good Habits* http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/books

Shop my new Mindfully Messy hoodie here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/apparel

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

You think a vacation will give you a break, but with a narcissist, it often becomes something else entirely.

In this episode, I’m talking about what it’s really like to travel with a narcissist. I’ve seen it over and over again, what should be a time to relax turns into a carefully orchestrated setup for control, intimidation, and emotional exhaustion. If you’ve ever come home from a trip feeling more anxious, confused, or even physically sick, you’re not imagining it.

I walk through the subtle ways narcissistic abuse shows up while traveling like taking you somewhere they know you’ll hate, “forgetting” something important, or isolating you from your support system. These things might seem small on their own, but together, they create an environment that’s anything but safe.

I also share strategies you can use if you feel stuck saying yes to the trip. What can you do to feel more in control? How do you protect your energy when you’re trapped on a flight, stuck in a car, or stranded in a hotel? And most importantly, how do you start seeing the pattern for what it is?

If vacations have ever felt more like punishment than peace, this episode will help you understand why and give you a few tools to take with you, no matter where you go.

Episode Breakdown:

00:00 Why Travel with a Narcissist Feels So Different

03:04 Narcissistic Tactics and Control During Vacations

08:02 Real Examples of Manipulation on Trips

16:27 How Abuse Shows Up at the Airport and in Transit

22:01 On-Vacation Behavior: Control, Coercion, and Isolation

28:02 The Aftermath: Post-Trip Anxiety and Physical Illness

32:32 Long-Term Impact on How You Experience Travel

35:46 Strategies to Protect Yourself While Traveling

42:07 Grounding Techniques and Internal Boundaries

This marks our 50th podcast episode and to celebrate we are doing a special giveaway for our listeners!! I’ll be giving away my two workbooks, Find Your Calm and Find Good Habits, AND a Mindfully Messy hoodie to ONE lucky winner!

To enter, leave a review of Next Up: Narcissism AND head over to my Instagram @dr.z_psychologist and comment “Happy50” on my celebrating 50 post. Entries close May 1, 2025 11:59pm. The winner will be announced and contacted May 2nd.

Links

Connect with Dr. Z: https://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/

https://www.zgrouptherapy.com/

https://www.instagram.com/dr.z_psychologist/

https://www.tiktok.com/@dr.z_psychologist

https://www.youtube.com/@DrJaimeZuckerman

Get my FREE breathing exercise here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/newsletter

Register for my on demand virtual courses here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/workshops

Order my workbooks! *Find Your Calm / Find Good Habits* http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/books

Shop my new Mindfully Messy hoodie here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/apparel

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Starting over doesn’t always feel bold. Most of the time, it looks like picking up something familiar, like a book, a journal, or a forgotten dream, and doing it simply to feel like yourself again.

In this episode, I’m joined by Zibby Owens, an author, podcast host, and the founder of Zibby Media, who shares what it looked like to rebuild her life after divorce. At 40, with four young kids and weekends suddenly quiet, she didn’t launch into some grand reinvention. She started writing again. And then she kept going.

We talk about what happens when the life you’ve built no longer fits and how to begin again when everything feels uncertain. Zibby opens up about grief, rejection, single parenthood, and the slow return to her own identity. She shares how structure helped her move forward, how creativity gave her something to hold onto, and how including her kids in her work helped her feel more connected as both a parent and a person.

If you’re in a season of starting over, or even thinking about it, I think you’ll find this conversation both grounding and encouraging. Zibby’s story is a reminder that you don’t need to have it all figured out to begin. You just need one small step in the direction of who you are.

Episode Breakdown:

00:00 Introduction

04:05 Restarting Life After Divorce at 40

07:04 How Zibby Built a Media Career from Scratch

08:10 Living with Urgency and Purpose

12:08 Coping with Co-Parenting Grief

15:09 The Power of Small, Consistent Steps

17:04 Structure, Routine, and Mental Health

18:08 Reclaiming Identity After Motherhood

19:04 Involving Kids in Career and Purpose

23:35 Advice for Women Facing Divorce

Links

Connect with Zibby Owens:

https://www.instagram.com/zibbyowens/

zibbymedia.com

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/totally-booked-with-zibby/id1366633318

Connect with Dr. Z: https://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/

https://www.zgrouptherapy.com/

https://www.instagram.com/dr.z_psychologist/

https://www.tiktok.com/@dr.z_psychologist

https://www.youtube.com/@DrJaimeZuckerman

Get my FREE breathing exercise here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/newsletter

Register for my on demand virtual courses here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/workshops

Order my workbooks! *Find Your Calm / Find Good Habits* http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/books

Shop my new Mindfully Messy hoodie here: http://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/apparel

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm