In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John explore the role of vision in leadership, especially for middle managers who often inherit rather than create vision. They emphasize the importance of fully internalizing and integrating vision into daily practices, even when you are already aligned.

The conversation dives into the tension that arises when managers don’t fully agree with a vision. Josh shares a framework for self-reflection through the lens of self-preservation behaviors: asking What am I afraid of losing? What am I trying to hide? What am I trying to prove? John introduces the principle of “disagree and commit,” highlighting how leaders can create space for healthy debate, then unite in full commitment once a decision is made.

The episode closes with four practical takeaways for managers:

1. Internalize your organization’s vision so you can teach it.

2. Integrate vision into daily conversations and priorities.

3. Reflect on self-preservation tendencies that may cause resistance.

4. Disagree and commit to build trust, alignment, and follow-through.

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, John and Josh explore what it means to lead from the middle—especially when the word manager often carries a negative connotation. After sharing the backstory of the podcast’s rebrand (and a trademark dispute that nudged them into “Leadership Limbo”), they dive into how leaders can reclaim management as a powerful and positive form of leadership.

Drawing from Gallup’s First, Break All the Rules, they unpack the metaphor of the manager as a catalyst—someone who accelerates growth by connecting people’s talents to organizational goals. They challenge leaders to:

• Reframe “manager” not as a lesser version of leadership, but as a distinct and powerful form of it. Too often, the term carries negative baggage, but John and Josh argue that great management is an active, catalytic force that turns vision into reality.

• Prioritize knowing people’s strengths rather than over-focusing on weaknesses.

• Distinguish between managing versus doing, resisting the urge to “just do it yourself” or create clones of your own style.

The conversation is both practical and reflective, with reminders that turnover is costly, management is active, and leaders must be intentional about setting their teams up to thrive.

The episode closes with a reflection challenge: Identify 2–3 people on your team, name their strengths without condition, and ask yourself whether their current work fully leverages those strengths in service of your organization’s goals.

Because in the end, being a manager isn’t about being stuck in limbo—it’s about catalyzing people and purpose.

You can find copies of First, Break All of the Rules here on Amazon or wherever else you purchase your books!

Episode Summary – Leadership Limbo

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John dig into the realities of “the middle” in leadership—focusing especially on middle management. They frame leadership through three paradigms: being in the middle of the org chart, navigating career transitions, and balancing the internal work of leading yourself while leading others.

The conversation highlights the challenges and opportunities of middle management, from building credibility and shifting relationships, to getting results through others without falling into micromanagement. They also explore the tension of carrying out someone else’s vision, managing up while still supporting your team, and the identity shifts that come with moving into leadership roles.

The hosts emphasize that management and leadership are not separate—managers must lead, and when done well, the role can be life-giving. They leave listeners with a reflective “3-2-1” exercise:

• 3 leadership successes,

• 2 current opportunities/challenges,

• 1 action step for next week.

This episode offers practical insights, thought-provoking questions, and a reminder that leadership is about unlocking the potential of others while navigating the tensions of the in-between