In this episode of Leadership Limbo, hosts Josh Hugo and John Clark engage with Andrew Robinson, a leader in organizational development, to explore the limitations of traditional management practices and the need for a shift towards a development mindset. Andrew discusses his new venture, Oxygen, which aims to create sustainable leadership development systems that empower individuals and organizations to thrive. The conversation delves into the etymology of management, the impact of AI on leadership, and practical steps leaders can take to foster growth and presence within their teams.

Read more about Andrew's work at www.andrewfrobinson.com and read his work at https://andrewfrobinson.substack.com/ and be sure to follow his exciting new venture, Oxygen!

00:00 Introduction to Leadership Limbo 03:17 Introducing Andrew Robinson and His Work 04:50 The Launch of Oxygen: A New Approach to Leadership Development 08:24 Challenging the Management Mindset 19:15 The Etymology of Management and Its Implications 29:05 The Intersection of AI and Human Development 30:17 Practical Applications of Oxygen's Approach 34:31 Questions for Leaders to Reflect On 39:11 Final Thoughts and Reflections

leadership, management, development, organizational growth, self-awareness, presence, human potential, leadership mindset, Oxygen, Andrew Robinson

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, hosts John Clark and Josh Hugo explore the complexities of influence and relationships in leadership. They discuss the importance of trust, the distinction between kindness and niceness, and the role of feedback in fostering healthy professional relationships. The conversation delves into the challenges of self-preservation and cynicism, emphasizing the need for managers to lower their own walls of self-preservation to effectively influence their teams. Practical applications and homework are provided to help listeners reflect on their own leadership styles and improve their influence.

• Leadership is about embracing discomfort and self-awareness.
• Building relationships in the workplace requires trust and clarity.
• Kindness is more impactful than mere niceness in professional settings.
• Feedback is essential for growth and trust in relationships.
• Self-preservation can hinder effective influence and communication.
• Cynicism often arises from fear of vulnerability and loss.
• Empowering others is more effective than rescuing them.
• Understanding individual communication styles is crucial for influence.
• Balancing character and competence is key to effective leadership.
• Good leadership involves making space for tension and growth.

You can find an image of The Influence Model here: https://share.google/rWqf9vR40eVEZFXJX)

00:00 Introduction to Leadership Limbo 02:53 The Power of Influence 04:41 Understanding Relationships in Leadership 07:55 The Difference Between Kindness and Niceness 11:42 Influence and Self-Preservation 15:38 Navigating Cynicism and Trust 19:03 Understanding Cynicism and Self-Preservation 23:16 Influence in Manager-Employee Relationships 29:02 Balancing Character and Competence 35:16 The Role of Self-Preservation in Leadership

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John turn their focus to one of the most critical and misunderstood leadership capabilities for middle managers: influence. Building on the previous conversation about the pressures and possibilities of middle management, they explore why influence—not authority, control, or coercion—is the currency that allows leaders to move people, ideas, and organizations forward in today’s fast-moving workplace.

The conversation begins by distinguishing influence from power. Josh and John argue that modern organizations can no longer rely on positional authority or top-down control to drive results. As work becomes faster, flatter, and more relational, managers must learn how to influence through trust, credibility, and care. Influence, they emphasize, is inseparable from development. Leaders who approach management as a way to grow people, rather than extract output, are far more likely to earn followership and sustain performance.

The episode introduces a set of nine common influence styles, not as a hierarchy of good and bad behaviors, but as tools that can be used wisely or poorly depending on motive, context, and overuse. From data-driven rational appeals to relational, values-based, and personal appeals, Josh and John unpack how each style works, where it can be effective, and how it can break down when leaders rely on it too heavily or without self-awareness.

Throughout the discussion, they return to a central theme: posture matters. Influence that is rooted in control, avoidance, or self-protection is often sensed, even if it sounds supportive on the surface. By contrast, influence grounded in genuine care for another person’s growth creates trust, accountability, and learning. The episode challenges managers to examine not just how they influence, but why.

The conversation closes with a reframing of influence as an ongoing practice rather than a momentary tactic. Effective influence begins long before a decision is announced. It is built through curiosity, listening, understanding people’s motivations, and asking better questions. When leaders invest in knowing their people and their organization deeply, influence becomes more natural, adaptive, and human.

• Influence is more effective than authority in modern organizations, especially for middle managers operating without full control or decision-making power.
• Leadership influence is inseparable from development. People are more likely to follow leaders they respect, trust, and believe are invested in their growth.
• There are multiple influence styles, and no single approach works in every situation. Over-reliance on one style often creates blind spots.
• Posture matters as much as technique. Influence rooted in care and accountability feels different than influence driven by control or convenience.
• Asking thoughtful questions is often more powerful than issuing directives when it comes to motivating and aligning others.

Take time this week to reflect on your default influence style. Consider which approaches you rely on most and where that reliance may be limiting your effectiveness. Identify one influence style you tend to underuse and experiment with it intentionally in an upcoming conversation. Pay attention not just to outcomes, but to how people respond and what it reveals about trust and connection.

In the Season Two premiere of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John return to the core reason this podcast exists: the often overlooked and overburdened role of the middle manager. Instead of starting the year with goals or resolutions, they examine a more urgent question facing organizations today—why middle management has become a major driver of disengagement, burnout, and organizational underperformance.

The conversation centers on a striking reality. While middle managers have the greatest influence on employee engagement, only a small percentage of them report being engaged themselves. This disconnect points to a systemic issue rather than individual failure. Managers are expected to execute strategy without shaping it, lead people without sufficient support, and drive engagement while carrying increasing pressure from all sides.

Josh and John challenge how organizations typically respond to engagement problems. Too often, companies bypass managers by adding new initiatives, surveys, or programs instead of investing in manager development. This approach compounds the problem by increasing workload and stress without strengthening leadership capacity.

They also explore why traditional management training falls short. Many programs focus on process and compliance while neglecting the identity shift required to move from individual contributor to people developer. Leadership, they argue, is less about passing along directives and more about cultivating trust, clarity, and growth.

The episode closes with a call for both personal responsibility and organizational reflection. Healthy workplaces are built when managers are developed, supported, and trusted to do the relational work leadership requires. This conversation sets the foundation for Season Two, which will move from diagnosing the problem to offering practical solutions.

• Middle managers play the most influential role in engagement but are often the least supported and least developed.
• Engagement issues are rarely solved through broad initiatives and are most effectively addressed through manager development.
• Transactional cultures undermine trust, while relational leadership builds sustainable performance.
• Psychological safety for managers is essential for psychological safety across teams.
• Leadership development requires mindset and identity growth, not just technical skill building.

Before setting new goals this year, pause and assess whether you—or the managers you support—are truly equipped for the role being asked of you. Reflect on clarity of expectations, access to development, and whether people leadership is being treated as a core responsibility or an afterthought. Start there before adding new initiatives.

• Gallup workplace engagement research
• Harvard Business Review research on psychological safety

In the last of our Season 1 Redux - the Best of 2025 - we are re-sharing an episode all about a Development System: The Development Square.

We know that organizations who value development approach it systematically. It cannot be an idea, concept or belief by itself. It requires a paradigm and framework.

If you are going into 2026 with goals for greater success in people development, this is a must-listen.

Starting the week of January 12th, we'll be sharing out new episodes from Season 2!

Original Episode Description Below:

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John dive deeper into their ongoing series on developing others, introducing a practical and powerful framework known as the Development Square from The Voice-Driven Leader by Jeremie Kubicek and Steve Cockram.

Building on last week’s conversation about mindset (“To Me” vs. “By Me”), this episode explores how leaders can translate self-awareness into actionable systems for developing people. The duo walk through the four stages of development—Foundation, Immersion, Empowerment, and Multiplication—and unpack how each represents a distinct phase of learning and growth.

Josh explains how the model builds on Maslow’s hierarchy of competence (from unconscious incompetence to unconscious competence) and helps leaders identify where each team member is on their learning journey. Together, they emphasize that development is not an event—it’s a continual process of awareness, feedback, and adaptation.

They also highlight the emotional side of development: the “pit of despair” when confidence collapses, and the “green room” where skill mastery can become comfort or complacency. Through humor, stories, and practical examples—from new teachers to medical dramas—Josh and John make the case that great leaders must not only recognize these stages but actively guide others through them.

1. Development isn’t management—and it isn’t an event. True growth is woven into daily leadership, not reserved for workshops or annual reviews.

2. Everyone learns differently. What worked for you may not work for them. Development requires empathy, flexibility, and intentionality.

3. The Four Stages of Development:

   • Foundation (Unconscious Incompetence): “I do, you watch.” Excitement is high, competence is low.

   • Immersion (Conscious Incompetence): “I do, you help.” Mistakes rise, confidence dips—learning begins.

   • Empowerment (Conscious Competence): “You do, I help.” Skill is growing, autonomy increases.

   • Multiplication (Unconscious Competence): “You do, I watch.” Mastery emerges—and it’s time to develop others.

4. Beware the “pit of despair.” When confidence collapses, leaders must support—not rescue—those they lead.

5. Don’t get stuck in the “green room.” Competence can lead to complacency; stretch high performers by challenging them to multiply others.

6. Your mindset still drives your method. Even with a strong framework, self-preservation and ego can derail development. Stay other-oriented.

Think about one person you’re developing right now—a colleague, direct report, or team member.

• Identify which stage of development they’re currently in: Foundation, Immersion, Empowerment, or Multiplication.

• Ask yourself: What do they need from me at this stage?

  • More modeling and demonstration?

  • Shoulder-to-shoulder feedback?

  • Space to practice with support?

  • Stretch opportunities to mentor others?

• Bonus reflection: Where are you in your own development journey—and what kind of support would help you grow next?

• The Voice-Driven Leader — Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram

• The 100X Leader — Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram

• The Drama Triangle — Dr. Stephen Karpman

• Sacred Hoops — Phil Jackson (with Hugh Delehanty)

• Conscious Leadership: The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership — Jim Dethmer, Diana Chapman, & Kaley Warner Klemp

• The Pit (TV Series) — referenced as an analogy for teaching and skill progression

To wrap up 2025, we're re-posting a few of our favorite episodes from this past year. This week's redux is Episode 9 - Communication: Are You Trying to Be Interested or Interesting?

As we spend time with family and friends during this holiday season, ask yourself, am I taking part in conversations in which I'm trying to be interesting or interested in others?

We hope you enjoy this "Top Hit" as we wrap up 2025!

And if you haven't done so yet, please Subscribe and Share our podcast with friends and family you might believe would enjoy and benefit from listening to our show.

In this episode, Josh and John take a second pass at one of leadership’s most defining skills — communication. Moving beyond what we say to how and why we say it, they explore the motives, tendencies, and patterns that shape our words and impact our teams. Through real examples and archetypes, they help listeners identify what drives their communication habits and how self-awareness transforms connection and clarity.

• Motives and tendencies: Awareness doesn’t erase them, but it helps leaders recognize and redirect them.

• Patterns and behavior: You can’t always change your wiring, but you can change your actions.

• Communication archetypes: The visionary, the perfectionist, and the over-talker — and what they reveal about leadership motives.

• Transmission and receiving: Great communication is both speaking and listening with intention.

• Be interested, not interesting: Curiosity builds trust more than charisma ever will.

• “Are you trying to be more interesting or more interested?”

• “Your motives aren’t going anywhere — but your patterns can change.”

• “You can’t delegate responsibility and still hold all the authority.”

• “Communication equals transmission plus receiving.”

Take ten minutes this week to reflect — and write it down.

1. Name one behavior you notice in the way you communicate (talking over, holding back, over-explaining, etc.).

2. Ask yourself why: What’s the motive beneath it? What are you afraid of, avoiding, or trying to prove?

3. Get feedback: Ask one trusted colleague or friend to describe how they experience your communication.

4. Set an intention: Choose one way to practice being more interested than interesting in your next conversation.

To wrap up 2025, we're re-posting a few of our favorite episodes from this past year. This week's redux is Episode 3 - The "Rebrand" Episode when we moved from our earlier title (that shall go unnamed) to the current title, Leadership Limbo!

If you haven't listened to this episode it's a great way to ground in the purpose of our show and understand the vision for what we're aiming to do.

We hope you enjoy this "Top Hit" as we wrap up 2025!

And if you haven't done so yet, please Subscribe and Share our podcast with friends and family you might believe would enjoy and benefit from listening to our show.

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, John and Josh explore what it means to lead from the middle—especially when the word manager often carries a negative connotation. After sharing the backstory of the podcast’s rebrand (and a trademark dispute that nudged them into “Leadership Limbo”), they dive into how leaders can reclaim management as a powerful and positive form of leadership.

Drawing from Gallup’s First, Break All the Rules, they unpack the metaphor of the manager as a catalyst—someone who accelerates growth by connecting people’s talents to organizational goals. They challenge leaders to:

• Reframe “manager” not as a lesser version of leadership, but as a distinct and powerful form of it. Too often, the term carries negative baggage, but John and Josh argue that great management is an active, catalytic force that turns vision into reality.

• Prioritize knowing people’s strengths rather than over-focusing on weaknesses.

• Distinguish between managing versus doing, resisting the urge to “just do it yourself” or create clones of your own style.

The conversation is both practical and reflective, with reminders that turnover is costly, management is active, and leaders must be intentional about setting their teams up to thrive.

The episode closes with a reflection challenge: Identify 2–3 people on your team, name their strengths without condition, and ask yourself whether their current work fully leverages those strengths in service of your organization’s goals.

Because in the end, being a manager isn’t about being stuck in limbo—it’s about catalyzing people and purpose.

You can find copies of First, Break All of the Rules here on Amazon or wherever else you purchase your books!

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John introduce the Peace Index, a simple framework leaders can use to assess their overall health and leadership capacity. Rather than treating health as a personal side project or a physical fitness goal, the conversation reframes well-being as a foundational leadership skill that directly impacts clarity, presence, and sustainability.

The Peace Index invites leaders to pause and take a holistic snapshot of their current reality across five interconnected areas: place, provision, personal health, people, and purpose. Josh explains that leadership breakdowns often begin long before performance slips appear. Mental fog, emotional reactivity, and chronic stress are usually signals that one or more of these areas is out of alignment.

John adds that the value of the tool is not in perfection or scoring well, but in awareness. Leaders are often surprised by what rises to the surface when they slow down long enough to notice their environment, relationships, financial stressors, physical habits, and sense of meaning. The inventory becomes a mirror that helps leaders identify where peace is present and where strain has quietly accumulated.

The conversation also explores how leadership culture often minimizes mental and emotional health, encouraging leaders to push through discomfort rather than address root causes. Josh and John challenge that norm, offering a different approach: start small, respond intentionally, and restore order where you have the most control. Sustainable leadership is not built through constant optimization, but through simple, repeatable practices that create stability over time.

The episode closes by reinforcing a core idea of Leadership Limbo: leaders who tend to their own health lead with greater calm, empathy, and effectiveness. When leaders are grounded and aligned, they create healthier systems, stronger relationships, and teams that thrive rather than burn out.

Leadership health is holistic, not just physical. A leader’s environment, relationships, resources, and sense of purpose shape how they show up just as much as sleep or exercise.

The Peace Index works best as a routine. Its power comes from being revisited regularly, not from a single moment of reflection.

Place matters more than most leaders admit. Physical spaces, digital clutter, and environmental chaos can quietly drain energy and focus.

Provision affects peace. Financial stress or scarcity thinking often spills into decision-making, relationships, and leadership posture.

Personal health is about progress, not perfection. Small, consistent habits matter more than ideal routines that never happen.

People are central to leadership health. Disconnection, unresolved tension, or lack of community reduces capacity and resilience.

Purpose takes the longest to address but has the deepest impact. When meaning feels misaligned, leaders feel it everywhere.

Mental health is a whole-system signal. Feeling mentally “off” is often a cue that one or more life categories needs attention.

Set aside five minutes this week to walk yourself through the Peace Index. Reflect honestly on your place, provision, personal health, people, and purpose. Notice which area feels most strained right now. Choose one small, concrete action that would restore a sense of peace or order in that area. The goal is not to fix everything, but to take one step that increases clarity and capacity.

GiANT Worldwide Peace Index Framework (You can read more in here in a previous blog Josh wrote about this and see the image of the tool itself)