What happens when organizations become so focused on optimizing systems that they stop developing the people inside them?

Former Rocket Mortgage Graham Skidmore joins Josh and John to discuss burnout after professional success, the difference between coaching and advising, and how leaders can use AI to expand human capability rather than diminish it.

Graham shares the deeply personal story of reaching the height of professional success while simultaneously experiencing burnout, loss of identity, and growing dissatisfaction. That experience ultimately led him away from corporate leadership and toward a mission centered on human flourishing, spirituality, health, and the responsible use of artificial intelligence.

Together, the conversation explores how leaders can move beyond managing people as resources and instead create organizations that develop human potential. They discuss why individualized leadership matters, how coaching differs from advising, the role spirituality plays in leadership maturity, and why Graham believes AI should expand, not replace, human agency.

Rather than viewing AI as humanity's competitor, Graham argues that leaders have an opportunity to use technology to remove routine work while freeing people to think more creatively, solve more meaningful problems, and contribute from their unique strengths. Throughout the conversation, Josh, John, and Graham challenge leaders to shift from optimizing systems alone to investing more intentionally in the growth of the people those systems exist to serve.

• Professional success does not always lead to personal fulfillment. Sometimes burnout becomes the catalyst for discovering a more authentic way to lead.
• Coaching develops people differently than advising. Advising teaches someone what to know; coaching helps people better understand themselves.
• Healthy leadership begins with accepting that people are fundamentally different, not problems to standardize.
• AI should be used to augment human capability, not diminish human agency or critical thinking.
• Organizations create better long-term outcomes when they invest in developing people rather than simply optimizing processes.
• Leaders create stronger organizations when they move from having all the answers to creating environments where collective wisdom can emerge.

00:00 – Introducing Graham Skidmore 08:15 – Success, Burnout, and Leaving Corporate Leadership 17:45 – Coaching, Individuality, and Leadership Development 21:30 – Spirituality, Authenticity, and Leading Others 32:00 – AI, Human Agency, and the Future of Work 53:00 – Staying Grounded Through Uncertainty 01:00:30 – Practical Advice for Leaders

Consider this question:

Are you spending more time helping people fit your system - or helping them discover how they uniquely contribute to it?

As you reflect on your own leadership:

• Where are you relying primarily on advising instead of coaching?
• How well do you understand the unique strengths of the people you lead?
• In what ways could AI create more space for human creativity instead of replacing human thinking?

Finally, ask yourself Graham's central question:

Am I building systems that optimize people - or systems that help people become more fully themselves?

• Harmony Health Institute
• Graham Skidmore on LinkedIn

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh Hugo and John Clark revisit one of the podcast's earliest topics -communication - but through a very different lens. Rather than offering another conversation about how to communicate more effectively, they challenge one of the most common phrases heard in organizations: "We have a communication problem."

Josh and John argue that while communication is often blamed for organizational dysfunction, it is rarely the root issue. Instead, "communication" has become an easy, socially acceptable diagnosis that is broad enough for everyone to agree with while remaining vague enough that no one has to take ownership.

The conversation explores what leaders should do instead. Rather than immediately solving for better meetings, better emails, or better systems, they encourage leaders to become curious. What does someone actually mean when they say communication is broken? Are they feeling unheard? Is decision-making unclear? Are roles poorly defined? Is there a lack of psychological safety? Or are deeper issues of maturity, ownership, learning, or organizational systems actually driving the frustration?

Throughout the episode, Josh and John unpack several underlying causes that frequently hide behind complaints about communication, offering practical questions leaders can use to diagnose the real issue instead of treating symptoms. The discussion ultimately reframes communication as less of a messaging problem and more of a leadership challenge involving self-awareness, clarity, trust, accountability, and organizational design.

"Communication" is often an incomplete diagnosis. While communication problems certainly exist, leaders should resist accepting the phrase at face value and instead ask what people specifically mean.

Curiosity beats assumptions. The best leaders resist jumping immediately to solutions and instead ask thoughtful questions that uncover the underlying issue.

Many communication challenges are actually behavioral challenges. Self-awareness, maturity, ownership, learning, psychological safety, and role clarity often have a greater impact than simply improving information flow.

Systems matter—but they aren't the starting point. Meetings, processes, and communication tools are important, but they cannot solve problems rooted in culture, mindset, or relationships.

Great communicators take responsibility for both transmission and reception. Communication is not simply sending information—it requires shared responsibility for understanding.

00:00 – Summer Stories and Season Three Check-In 05:05 – Why "Communication Problems" Are Everywhere 09:45 – What People Really Mean When They Say Communication Is Broken 16:10 – Self-Awareness and Ownership in Communication 25:45 – Role Clarity and Decision Rights 31:00 – Psychological Safety, Learning, and Growth Mindsets 42:10 – When Communication Really Is a Systems Problem 47:30 – Asking Better Questions as a Leader

The next time someone tells you, "Communication is the problem," resist the urge to solve it immediately.

Instead, ask:

"What do you mean by that?"

Keep asking questions until you move beyond the label and uncover the real issue.

As you listen, pay attention to whether the conversation points toward self-awareness, role clarity, decision-making, psychological safety, learning, systems, or something else entirely.

Finally, challenge yourself with Josh's reminder:

Ask questions you don't want the answers to. Those are often the questions that lead to the greatest leadership growth.

The PIQ Perspective — Josh Hugo (The PIQ Perspective)

Season 3 begins with Josh Hugo and John Clark tackling one of leadership's most celebrated, and most misunderstood, concepts: servant leadership.

While servant leadership has become a guiding philosophy for organizations across education, nonprofits, healthcare, faith communities, and business, Josh and John challenge listeners to look beneath the language and examine the behaviors it can unintentionally produce. The conversation isn't about abandoning servant leadership, but about asking a more important question: What does healthy, mature servant leadership actually look like?

Drawing from Robert Greenleaf's original philosophy, the hosts explore how servant leadership was intended to prioritize the growth and development of others. However, they argue that without self-awareness, leaders can unintentionally drift into unhealthy patterns that leave both themselves and their teams worse off.

The discussion introduces three common archetypes that can emerge beneath the banner of servant leadership: the heroic controller who takes on too much, the overly empathetic absorber who carries responsibilities that belong to others, and the deferential decision-maker who avoids making difficult leadership decisions. While each posture stems from good intentions, each ultimately undermines the growth, responsibility, and agency of the very people leaders hope to serve.

Throughout the episode, Josh and John challenge listeners to move beyond simply identifying as servant leaders and instead define what that identity actually means in practice. Ultimately, mature servant leadership is less about rescuing people from discomfort and more about creating the conditions where they can grow through it.

Servant leadership is a philosophy worth preserving - but only when practiced with maturity and intentionality.

Helping is not always serving. Leaders can unintentionally disempower others by taking on responsibilities that belong to their teams.

Over-functioning often disguises itself as care. Whether through control, rescuing, or excessive empathy, leaders may create dependency rather than development.

Under-functioning is equally dangerous. Avoiding difficult decisions or endlessly seeking consensus can leave organizations without clear leadership.

Healthy servant leadership begins with self-awareness. Understanding your own motives, values, and leadership tendencies allows you to serve others without sacrificing responsibility, clarity, or sustainability.

Reflect on which of these three archetypes you naturally gravitate toward:

The Heroic Controller – taking over because you believe you'll do it best.

The Overly Empathetic Absorber – carrying emotional or practical burdens that belong to someone else.

The Deferential Decision-Maker – delaying or avoiding difficult decisions in an effort to keep everyone comfortable.

Ask yourself:

What motivation sits underneath this tendency?

Then identify one leadership principle or value you want to intentionally practice the next time you're tempted to over-function, or under-function, for someone else.

The PIQ Perspective — When Servant Leadership Creates Dysfunction

The Greenleaf Center for Servant Leadership

In this special bonus episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh Hugo and John Clark realize they accidentally miscounted the season schedule and discover they aren't quite at the summit of Season 2 after all. Instead of wrapping things up, they take the opportunity to do something different: turn the microphones on themselves.

Through a mix of leadership reflections, personal stories, rapid-fire questions, and a healthy amount of humor, Josh and John explore the experiences, beliefs, and lessons that have shaped them both as leaders and as people. Along the way, they discuss formative jobs, parenting, leadership advice they've abandoned, feedback that challenged them, books that influenced their thinking, and the guests who most impacted their perspectives over the past two seasons.

The conversation serves as both a retrospective on the podcast and a deeper look into the people behind it. Themes of self-awareness, curiosity, development, ownership, psychological safety, overfunctioning, and leadership maturity all resurface—but through a more personal lens than listeners typically hear.

The episode ultimately reinforces one of the central ideas of Leadership Limbo: leadership is less about having the right answers and more about continually learning, growing, reflecting, and becoming more intentional in how we show up for ourselves and others.

00:00 – The False Summit and Bonus Episode Introduction 04:25 – Unexpected Jobs and Early Work Experiences 09:40 – Leadership Advice We've Changed Our Minds About 17:00 – Leadership Concepts We Resisted and Eventually Embraced 22:45 – Feedback That Stung but Turned Out to Be True 27:40 – Guests and Ideas That Changed Our Thinking 33:20 – Topics Leaders Still Misunderstand 36:15 – If You Could Recommend Only One Book 41:50 – Coaching Questions and Leadership Buzzwords 45:00 – Leadership Habits, Workplace Pet Peeves, and Dream Guests 51:00 – Leadership Lessons We Still Struggle to Practice 56:00 – What We Hope Our Children Learn From Watching Us Work 59:20 – Rapid Fire Lightning Round

Leadership development starts with self-awareness. Many of the most meaningful lessons discussed in the episode stem from understanding personal tendencies, blind spots, and patterns of behavior.

Curiosity is a leadership skill. Both hosts reflect on the importance of remaining learners and resisting the temptation to believe they already have the answers.

The hardest leadership work is often internal. Presence, emotional awareness, overfunctioning, underfunctioning, and authentic connection remain ongoing areas of growth.

Many leadership concepts become distorted through overuse. Terms like psychological safety, servant leadership, priorities, and ownership often lose meaning when leaders stop wrestling with their deeper implications.

Leadership is ultimately relational. Whether discussing family, teams, coaching, or organizational culture, the episode repeatedly returns to the importance of how leaders function in relationship with others.

Take a few minutes to answer three of the questions from this episode for yourself:

What feedback have you received that stung but turned out to be true?

What leadership concept did you resist before eventually embracing?

If someone observed you at work every day, what leadership habit would they find most annoying?

Then consider this final reflection:

If someone listened to every conversation you've had as a leader over the last year, what would they conclude you believe about leadership?

A Failure of Nerve by Edwin Friedman

The Social Animal by David Brooks

A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens

The PIQ Perspective by Josh Hugo (josh482.substack.com)

As Leadership Limbo approaches its 40th episode and the close of Season 2, Josh Hugo and John Clark pause to reflect on the ideas, guests, and leadership lessons that have most shaped their thinking over the past year.

Rather than revisiting individual episodes, this conversation explores the recurring themes that surfaced again and again across discussions with guests from education, healthcare, manufacturing, consulting, construction, and beyond. The result is a thoughtful look at what leadership development actually requires—and where many leaders unintentionally get stuck.

Josh and John examine the tension between leadership frameworks and real-world complexity, arguing that many leadership concepts are oversimplified and often misunderstood. They revisit the central idea that leadership is rarely about certainty and control; instead, it requires learning to navigate ambiguity, make decisions without perfect information, and remain grounded amid competing pressures.

The conversation also returns to one of the podcast's most consistent themes: leaders as developers of people. Drawing on past discussions about de-envelopment, coaching, accountability, and growth, Josh and John reflect on why great leadership begins with a belief in the capacity of others and why development requires more than simply telling people what to do.

The episode also explores self-differentiation, mature functioning, emotional awareness, presence, and the importance of understanding how leaders respond to pressure. Throughout the discussion, the hosts challenge listeners to think differently about leadership—not as a collection of techniques, but as an ongoing practice of helping people grow, contribute, and flourish.

Ultimately, the episode lands on a powerful idea: leadership is less about directing others and more about creating the conditions that help people become more fully themselves.

00:00 – Celebrating 40 Episodes of Leadership Limbo 05:00 – Leadership Advice Is More Nuanced Than It Appears 08:00 – Navigating Ambiguity and Uncertainty as a Leader 10:30 – Development, De-Envelopment, and Believing in Others 15:00 – Self-Differentiation and Mature Leadership 23:00 – Why Technical Expertise Isn't Enough 26:00 – Human Beings vs. Human Doings 31:00 – Care, Competence, and the Work of Leadership 34:00 – Liberation, Storytelling, and Helping Others Flourish 37:00 – Final Reflections and Listener Homework

Leadership is rarely as simple as leadership books make it seem. The most important leadership concepts often require deeper reflection, context, and nuance than many frameworks suggest.

Ambiguity is a reality to navigate. Effective leaders learn to act thoughtfully even when certainty is unavailable.

The best leaders see themselves as developers of people. Growth happens when leaders believe others are capable of learning, improving, and taking ownership of their development.

Technical expertise may earn leadership opportunities, but relational skills determine long-term effectiveness. Self-awareness, emotional intelligence, communication, and presence consistently matter more than many leaders realize.

Leadership is ultimately about creating conditions for others to thrive. Great leaders challenge, support, develop, and liberate others rather than simply directing their work.

Reflect on the people you currently lead, support, coach, teach, or influence.

Ask yourself:

Where am I solving problems for people that they could solve themselves?

Where am I confusing caring for someone with developing someone?

What would it look like to create more conditions for growth, ownership, and responsibility?

Finally, consider John's closing question:

How are you helping liberate others to become their best selves—and what might need to change in your own leadership to make that possible?

A Failure of Nerve — Edwin Friedman

The Support-Challenge Matrix — GiANT Worldwide

The Death of Demographics — David Allison

The PIQ Perspective — Josh Hugo (josh482.substack.com)

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh Hugo and John Clark explore one of the most overused, and often misunderstood, concepts in leadership: ownership.

Leaders frequently say they want teams that “take ownership,” “act like owners,” or are “biased toward action.” But what do those phrases actually mean in practice? And more importantly, what conditions are leaders responsible for creating before they can reasonably expect ownership from others?

The conversation begins by unpacking the tension beneath common leadership frustrations. While many leaders claim they want initiative, solutions, and autonomy from their teams, they often unknowingly create cultures that discourage risk-taking, punish imperfect ideas, bottleneck decision-making, or leave responsibilities undefined. In those environments, calls for “ownership” become less about empowerment and more about leader frustration.

Josh and John challenge the simplistic idea that ownership is merely initiative or hustle. Instead, they define ownership as understanding your responsibilities, acting within them courageously, and resisting both passivity and over-functioning. Real ownership requires clarity, trust, development, and appropriate authority—not just motivational language.

A major theme throughout the episode is the role of leaders in either enabling or suppressing ownership. Leaders who immediately shoot down ideas, reclaim decisions, or maintain control over every outcome unintentionally train teams to stop taking initiative. Likewise, organizations that fail to define roles, decision-making rights, and developmental pathways often create confusion rather than accountability.

The episode also explores the relationship between ownership and growth. Strong teams are not built by collecting experts who stay comfortably within their lane. They are built by consistently challenging people within their zone of proximal development—stretching them enough to grow while still providing coaching and support.

Ultimately, the conversation reframes ownership as a leadership systems issue rather than simply an employee mindset issue. If leaders want courageous, accountable, solutions-oriented teams, they must first create environments where people are trusted, developed, and genuinely empowered to act.

00:00 – Introduction and Spring Chaos with Kids and Sports 04:16 – Recapping Psychological Safety and Team Development 06:28 – What Do Leaders Actually Mean by “Ownership”? 09:17 – Why Teams Often Flinch at “Extreme Ownership” 12:48 – Defining Ownership More Clearly 16:06 – Generational Complaints and Leadership Frustration 20:49 – “I Want Solutions, Not Problems” 25:34 – “Act Like an Owner” and “Bias Toward Action” 27:43 – Risk-Taking and Creating Conditions for Ownership 31:32 – Leadership Bottlenecks and Decision-Making Rights 35:22 – Challenging People Within Their Growth Zone 39:48 – Coaching vs. Simply Demanding Ownership 41:10 – Roles, Responsibilities, and Organizational Clarity 46:22 – Homework and Final Leadership Reflections

Ownership is not the same thing as over-functioning or taking over everyone else’s work.

Leaders often unintentionally suppress ownership through defensiveness, bottlenecks, and lack of clarity.

Psychological safety and ownership are deeply connected because ownership requires risk-taking.

Teams stop bringing solutions when leaders consistently shut ideas down or reclaim control.

Clear decision-making rights are essential for real accountability.

Strong leaders challenge people within their growth zone while also coaching and supporting them.

Undefined roles and vague expectations create confusion, not ownership.

Leadership phrases like “be biased toward action” only work if leaders clearly define what that actually means.

Think about one leadership phrase you frequently use with your team—“take ownership,” “be proactive,” “bring solutions,” or something similar.

Now ask yourself honestly: have I actually created the conditions where people can succeed at this?

Then ask someone you trust on your team what those phrases actually sound like from their perspective. Do they feel empowering, confusing, risky, frustrating, or unclear?

Pay attention this week to whether your leadership behaviors truly reinforce the ownership you say you want.

Jocko Willink’s concept of “Extreme Ownership” Effective Coaching by Myles Downey M. Scott Peck’s community development model Concept of Zone of Proximal Development Liz Wiseman’s Multipliers and the “80% rule”