Our guest is Mark Eddleston, a writer based in Bristol, UK, and the author of The Pigeon Test: Why Change Fails. His work explores organizational change and the limits of traditional consulting and transformation models. We talk about the real difference between linear problems and complex ones, the tension between systems thinking and complexity theory, and what change-makers can actually do once the old playbooks stop working. It's a conversation about what it takes to think more honestly about how to drive change inside organizations.

Our guest is Shonna Waters, an organizational psychologist with over 25 years of experience studying the intersection of work, people, and technology. She previously served as VP of Well-Being Research at BetterUp, and has spent her career understanding how individuals and organizations adapt to change. We talk about what happens when technology outpaces our ability to make sense of it, the universal need triad of security, growth, and significance, and why about a third of workers demand that work meet all three. We also get into why the middle ground is disappearing, with fewer cautious voices and more extreme positions, and what it takes for leaders to hold onto trust and credibility when they're navigating the same uncertainty as everyone else.

Our guest this episode is Jerry Michalski, a former tech industry analyst who worked with Esther Dyson and was writing about neural networks back in 1988. Today he focuses on trust and institutional design through his consultancy, Rethink The Future, where he asks a simple but provocative question: why do we design everything as if people are bad actors? We talk about what it means to design from trust rather than for it, why Wikipedia's open model works when so many locked-down systems don't, why microfinance works, and what happens when institutions assume the worst about people instead of the best. It's a conversation about fragility and possibility, and why this moment of crisis might be the opening trust-first thinkers have been waiting for.

Undercurrents of Change is a podcast about the signals beneath the surface of change. In each episode, Marc Bolick and Arne van Oosterom explore the deeper shifts shaping business, leadership, and innovation, beyond the headlines and the hype. Through conversations with entrepreneurs, builders, and thinkers, we look at what people are actually experiencing as they navigate uncertainty and transformation in their work.

In this first episode, we speak with Miikka Leinonen, entrepreneur, business owner, and co-author of AI Pathway. Mika works closely with leadership teams trying to turn AI ambition into real organizational change.

Together we explore how AI is reshaping the world of consultancy, why many leadership teams still struggle to act despite the urgency, and the deeper question many professionals are quietly asking themselves today: what is my real value in a world where AI can do so much of the work?

It's an honest conversation about experimentation, uncertainty, and the human side of technological change.