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What if your copy worked because you thought better, not because you wrote harder? That’s the challenge David L. Deutsch lays down as we dive into the craft of response-driven writing—from Ogilvy roots to billion-dollar wins—and the mental models that make persuasion stick in the real world.

We go beyond formulas and catchy lines to ask sharper questions: who is your reader, what does their day feel like, and what would actually move them now?

David shares how he turns “boring” into compelling by reframing problems and dramatising the cost of inaction, a lesson echoed by the genius behind “Got Milk?”.

We explore systems thinking for marketers—mapping loops, incentives, and constraints—so you fix the pattern, not just polish the prose. Music and copywriting meet as he explains pattern recognition, cadence, and structure; improvisation shows up in the yes-and approach that meets readers where they are and guides them forward without friction. And we talk about working with vistas in mind: motion, cities, and the right constraints that free your best ideas.

Along the way, you’ll hear why “consistently not stupid” beats “very intelligent,” how to write as if you’re persuading across a table, and what it takes to make the obvious inevitable. We also touch on legacy—how capturing stories helps those who listen and those who tell—and the long view that puts craft, clarity, and human connection ahead of noise.

If you want copy that gets response, these are the habits and mindsets to adopt.

Enjoy the conversation, then try this: before you write your next line, map your reader’s day, name their stakes, and decide the one action that would truly help.

If this episode resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who writes or sells, and leave a review to tell us the one idea you’ll use today.

Join David at https://www.speakingofwriting.com for free trainings and coaching. Connect with me, Chris Grimes on LinkedIn; Gift a Legacy Life Reflections conversation at https://www.legacylifereflections.com

And if you’d like to be in the show too, find out how at The Good Listening To Show website. Contact me at chris@secondcurve.uk On X and Instagram, it’s @thatchrisgrimes

Tune in next week for more stories of 'Distinction & Genius' from The Good Listening To Show 'Clearing'. If you would like to be my Guest too then you can find out HOW via the different 'series strands' at 'The Good Listening To Show' website.

• Show Website: https://www.thegoodlisteningtoshow.com
• You can email me about the Show: chris@secondcurve.uk
• Twitter thatchrisgrimes
• LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-grimes-actor-broadcaster-facilitator-coach/
• FaceBook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/842056403204860

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What if the shortest path to better work is learning to be where your feet are? That’s the spark behind our conversation with Matt Zeigler—producer turned financial adviser, community builder, and host of the very excellent "Just Press Record" Podcast —who shows how presence, listening, and thoughtful connections can turn chance into momentum.

We trace Matt’s arc from teenage gigs and studio life to a mid‑career pivot into finance, where he discovered the same skill set applies: translate feelings into form, complexity into clarity, and fear into decisions. When a singer once asked for “more yellow,” he knew what to do. Years later, executives arrive with different words for the same fog—and Matt helps them find the signal by naming the gap between story and reality.

That gap is the heart of Epsilon Theory and Panoptica, where Matt collaborates to decode how narratives shape markets, media, and culture. Think of epsilon as the error term between the map and the terrain—the place where headlines distort, incentives mislead, and human judgment goes sideways. Matt shares how better questions, cleaner language, and subtraction over addition can align plans with reality. It’s strategy as craft: roll off the noise, let the truth breathe.

We also dive into the “three‑body problem” of networks: you, one other person, and both of your audiences. The math stops behaving, and that’s the point. Serendipity compounds when you curate introductions and record the moment, which is exactly what Just Press Record does so well. Along the way we meet his “squirrels” (Premier League football and new music), hear why introverts make strong hosts, and unpack a line that changes lives: “How am I complicit in creating the things I say I don’t want?”

If you value practical wisdom, human‑centred strategy, and stories that actually help, press play. Then subscribe, share this with a friend who loves smart conversations, and leave a review to tell us what you’ll subtract this week to move forward.

Tune in next week for more stories of 'Distinction & Genius' from The Good Listening To Show 'Clearing'. If you would like to be my Guest too then you can find out HOW via the different 'series strands' at 'The Good Listening To Show' website.

• Show Website: https://www.thegoodlisteningtoshow.com
• You can email me about the Show: chris@secondcurve.uk
• Twitter thatchrisgrimes
• LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-grimes-actor-broadcaster-facilitator-coach/
• FaceBook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/842056403204860

Don't forget to SUBSCRIBE & REVIEW wherever you get your Podcasts :)

Thanks for listening!

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Laughter can be a compass. Sitting with DeCastro—one of the world’s best-loved clowns—we step into Why Not Land, a clearing where play is protected, truth has room to breathe, and imagination outruns fear. From South London to Rio’s shoreline, she maps an art form often trivialised, arguing with warmth and precision that clowning is education, rebellion, and radical compassion all at once.

We journey through the founding of the Why Not Institute, born after Slava’s Snowshow and sustained by a fierce belief that clowns are truth tellers, entertainers and subversives. The pandemic cost the Institute its physical home, but not its purpose: keep the archive alive, keep the training accessible, keep the doors open to every line of clowning—circus, theatre, street, musical, spiritual, and rebel. Along the way, DeCastro dismantles the lazy insult that calls selfish power “clowning.” Real clowns risk themselves to say what others cannot, with tenderness and wit.

Her practice is anchored by “How to Be a Stupid,” a title that hides a serious proposition: the work is not technique first; it’s a state. Intensive training helps students unlearn perfectionism and step into a creative intelligence where failure is feedback and play is disciplined. We talk honour, friendship, and compassion; we talk samba beats that change your heartbeat; we talk Giulietta Masina, Wings of Desire, and painters whose generosity outlives them. There are trees with winter scarves, red motorbikes humming low through London, and bus rides where a stranger’s new phone becomes blue because a clown’s kindness tipped the scales.

What remains is a living legacy. Students write years later from rehearsal rooms and boardrooms, now “stupid in charge” of their own brave choices. DeCastro wants the Institute’s next home to be near a tube and open to all, so the archive—props, films, books—can breathe and be shared. Until then, the state of clown keeps migrating: into hearts, spirits and minds that choose curiosity over cleverness and play over posturing.

If this conversation moved you, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who needs permission to take fun seriously. And if you can help the Why Not Institute find a new home, reach out—let’s make the land of Why Not easier to find.

Tune in next week for more stories of 'Distinction & Genius' from The Good Listening To Show 'Clearing'. If you would like to be my Guest too then you can find out HOW via the different 'series strands' at 'The Good Listening To Show' website.

• Show Website: https://www.thegoodlisteningtoshow.com
• You can email me about the Show: chris@secondcurve.uk
• Twitter thatchrisgrimes
• LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-grimes-actor-broadcaster-facilitator-coach/
• FaceBook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/842056403204860

Don't forget to SUBSCRIBE & REVIEW wherever you get your Podcasts :)

Thanks for listening!