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What if your copy worked because you thought better, not because you wrote harder? That’s the challenge David L. Deutsch lays down as we dive into the craft of response-driven writing—from Ogilvy roots to billion-dollar wins—and the mental models that make persuasion stick in the real world.

We go beyond formulas and catchy lines to ask sharper questions: who is your reader, what does their day feel like, and what would actually move them now?

David shares how he turns “boring” into compelling by reframing problems and dramatising the cost of inaction, a lesson echoed by the genius behind “Got Milk?”.

We explore systems thinking for marketers—mapping loops, incentives, and constraints—so you fix the pattern, not just polish the prose. Music and copywriting meet as he explains pattern recognition, cadence, and structure; improvisation shows up in the yes-and approach that meets readers where they are and guides them forward without friction. And we talk about working with vistas in mind: motion, cities, and the right constraints that free your best ideas.

Along the way, you’ll hear why “consistently not stupid” beats “very intelligent,” how to write as if you’re persuading across a table, and what it takes to make the obvious inevitable. We also touch on legacy—how capturing stories helps those who listen and those who tell—and the long view that puts craft, clarity, and human connection ahead of noise.

If you want copy that gets response, these are the habits and mindsets to adopt.

Enjoy the conversation, then try this: before you write your next line, map your reader’s day, name their stakes, and decide the one action that would truly help.

If this episode resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who writes or sells, and leave a review to tell us the one idea you’ll use today.

Join David at https://www.speakingofwriting.com for free trainings and coaching. Connect with me, Chris Grimes on LinkedIn; Gift a Legacy Life Reflections conversation at https://www.legacylifereflections.com

And if you’d like to be in the show too, find out how at The Good Listening To Show website. Contact me at chris@secondcurve.uk On X and Instagram, it’s @thatchrisgrimes

Tune in next week for more stories of 'Distinction & Genius' from The Good Listening To Show 'Clearing'. If you would like to be my Guest too then you can find out HOW via the different 'series strands' at 'The Good Listening To Show' website.

• Show Website: https://www.thegoodlisteningtoshow.com
• You can email me about the Show: chris@secondcurve.uk
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What if the shortest path to better work is learning to be where your feet are? That’s the spark behind our conversation with Matt Zeigler—producer turned financial adviser, community builder, and host of the very excellent "Just Press Record" Podcast —who shows how presence, listening, and thoughtful connections can turn chance into momentum.

We trace Matt’s arc from teenage gigs and studio life to a mid‑career pivot into finance, where he discovered the same skill set applies: translate feelings into form, complexity into clarity, and fear into decisions. When a singer once asked for “more yellow,” he knew what to do. Years later, executives arrive with different words for the same fog—and Matt helps them find the signal by naming the gap between story and reality.

That gap is the heart of Epsilon Theory and Panoptica, where Matt collaborates to decode how narratives shape markets, media, and culture. Think of epsilon as the error term between the map and the terrain—the place where headlines distort, incentives mislead, and human judgment goes sideways. Matt shares how better questions, cleaner language, and subtraction over addition can align plans with reality. It’s strategy as craft: roll off the noise, let the truth breathe.

We also dive into the “three‑body problem” of networks: you, one other person, and both of your audiences. The math stops behaving, and that’s the point. Serendipity compounds when you curate introductions and record the moment, which is exactly what Just Press Record does so well. Along the way we meet his “squirrels” (Premier League football and new music), hear why introverts make strong hosts, and unpack a line that changes lives: “How am I complicit in creating the things I say I don’t want?”

If you value practical wisdom, human‑centred strategy, and stories that actually help, press play. Then subscribe, share this with a friend who loves smart conversations, and leave a review to tell us what you’ll subtract this week to move forward.

Tune in next week for more stories of 'Distinction & Genius' from The Good Listening To Show 'Clearing'. If you would like to be my Guest too then you can find out HOW via the different 'series strands' at 'The Good Listening To Show' website.

• Show Website: https://www.thegoodlisteningtoshow.com
• You can email me about the Show: chris@secondcurve.uk
• Twitter thatchrisgrimes
• LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-grimes-actor-broadcaster-facilitator-coach/
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Laughter can be a compass. Sitting with DeCastro—one of the world’s best-loved clowns—we step into Why Not Land, a clearing where play is protected, truth has room to breathe, and imagination outruns fear. From South London to Rio’s shoreline, she maps an art form often trivialised, arguing with warmth and precision that clowning is education, rebellion, and radical compassion all at once.

We journey through the founding of the Why Not Institute, born after Slava’s Snowshow and sustained by a fierce belief that clowns are truth tellers, entertainers and subversives. The pandemic cost the Institute its physical home, but not its purpose: keep the archive alive, keep the training accessible, keep the doors open to every line of clowning—circus, theatre, street, musical, spiritual, and rebel. Along the way, DeCastro dismantles the lazy insult that calls selfish power “clowning.” Real clowns risk themselves to say what others cannot, with tenderness and wit.

Her practice is anchored by “How to Be a Stupid,” a title that hides a serious proposition: the work is not technique first; it’s a state. Intensive training helps students unlearn perfectionism and step into a creative intelligence where failure is feedback and play is disciplined. We talk honour, friendship, and compassion; we talk samba beats that change your heartbeat; we talk Giulietta Masina, Wings of Desire, and painters whose generosity outlives them. There are trees with winter scarves, red motorbikes humming low through London, and bus rides where a stranger’s new phone becomes blue because a clown’s kindness tipped the scales.

What remains is a living legacy. Students write years later from rehearsal rooms and boardrooms, now “stupid in charge” of their own brave choices. DeCastro wants the Institute’s next home to be near a tube and open to all, so the archive—props, films, books—can breathe and be shared. Until then, the state of clown keeps migrating: into hearts, spirits and minds that choose curiosity over cleverness and play over posturing.

If this conversation moved you, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who needs permission to take fun seriously. And if you can help the Why Not Institute find a new home, reach out—let’s make the land of Why Not easier to find.

Tune in next week for more stories of 'Distinction & Genius' from The Good Listening To Show 'Clearing'. If you would like to be my Guest too then you can find out HOW via the different 'series strands' at 'The Good Listening To Show' website.

• Show Website: https://www.thegoodlisteningtoshow.com
• You can email me about the Show: chris@secondcurve.uk
• Twitter thatchrisgrimes
• LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-grimes-actor-broadcaster-facilitator-coach/
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What if the call that changes everything arrives decades late? Pete Townsend—actor, collector of lost causes, and lifelong Bristolian—shares a story stitched with grit, humour, and heart. From a childhood spent trying to meet a father’s unreachable ideals to a mid-rehearsal phone call revealing a twin sister he never knew, Pete’s journey explores identity, reunion, and the quiet power of being useful to others.

We wander through Bristol’s creative life: Carol singing that becomes Gilbert & Sullivan, Opera choruses that lead to the Bristol Old Vic Theatre School, and a Director’s note that becomes a life rule—“I can see you acting.” Pete talks about learning to be truthful on stage, why comedy from the Goons to Python shaped his ear, and how Radio 4 became his “university of the air.” He also opens a window into Bristol’s aerospace history with vivid memories of Concorde’s first lift and final landing—right down to a pilot’s cap trapped forever by heat and speed—and the surreal night he attended the Wicked premiere thanks to a name mix-up with the other Pete Townsend.

Beyond the anecdotes sits a deeper question: how do we measure a life? Pete doesn’t chase applause; he values usefulness, kindness, and the sense that time spent together wasn’t wasted. We talk legacy, adoption records, twin studies in Minnesota, the pull of old vehicles and even older stories, and why persistence—however modest—often wins the day. It’s reflective, funny, and deeply human.

If you’re drawn to personal storytelling, adoption reunions, Bristol theatre, Concorde lore, or the craft of acting with honesty, you’ll feel at home here. Listen, share with someone who loves a good true story, and if the idea of preserving a life story speaks to you, subscribe, leave a review, and consider gifting a Legacy Life Reflections session to someone you love.

Tune in next week for more stories of 'Distinction & Genius' from The Good Listening To Show 'Clearing'. If you would like to be my Guest too then you can find out HOW via the different 'series strands' at 'The Good Listening To Show' website.

• Show Website: https://www.thegoodlisteningtoshow.com
• You can email me about the Show: chris@secondcurve.uk
• Twitter thatchrisgrimes
• LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-grimes-actor-broadcaster-facilitator-coach/
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Settle in for a masterclass in comedy, connection, and creative perseverance as Welsh comedy legend Rob Brydon takes us on an intimate journey through his remarkable career. This isn't just another celebrity interview—it's a warm, revealing conversation that feels like eavesdropping on two old friends catching up over tea.

From his childhood in Port Talbot watching comedy greats like Ryan Davis to becoming a national treasure himself, Rob shares the pivotal moments that shaped his path. The conversation brims with delightful anecdotes: crying with laughter at pantomimes as a child, nervously meeting Steve Coogan for the first time, and the sliding doors moment when he bumped into Hugo Blick at the BBC, leading to the creation of "Marion and Geoff"—the show that changed everything.

What makes this episode truly special is Rob's disarming honesty about the struggles before success. While contemporaries like the League of Gentlemen were rising to fame, he was working on shopping channels, sending out VHS tapes that returned with the "crash of failure." His story reminds us that even the most accomplished performers face rejection and doubt. When he shares how Barry Humphries once told him, "You didn't just entertain that audience, you befriended them," we understand exactly what makes Rob so beloved by audiences worldwide.

The conversation takes unexpected turns, from Rob's growing appreciation for nature as he ages to his thoughts on legacy. When asked how he'd like to be remembered, his immediate answer—"as just a good dad"—reveals the man behind the performer. With his upcoming Scandinavian edition of "The Trip" with Steve Coogan on the horizon, this conversation captures Rob at a reflective moment in his celebrated career.

Whether you're a long-time fan or discovering Rob Brydon for the first time, this episode offers wisdom, warmth, and genuine laughter. Join us in the clearing for this thoughtful exploration of creativity, comedy, and the connections that make a life in entertainment meaningful.

Tune in next week for more stories of 'Distinction & Genius' from The Good Listening To Show 'Clearing'. If you would like to be my Guest too then you can find out HOW via the different 'series strands' at 'The Good Listening To Show' website.

• Show Website: https://www.thegoodlisteningtoshow.com
• You can email me about the Show: chris@secondcurve.uk
• Twitter thatchrisgrimes
• LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-grimes-actor-broadcaster-facilitator-coach/
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What happens when you finally stop trying to fit in and start embracing your true self? Patrick Bevan's transformation from corporate misfit to change alchemist reveals the power of authenticity in both life and business.

Patrick's journey begins with childhood struggles of not belonging – growing up in Hull as the kid who didn't fit in. The narrative takes a fascinating turn with a seemingly random walk through Battersea Park with a stranger who would become one of the world's most successful fund managers. This chance encounter catapulted Patrick from a dead-end job in a television shop to a cutting-edge trading firm, setting him on a path through the corporate world where he would continually feel like an outsider.

The turning point came when a Myers-Briggs assessment revealed Patrick as the lone ENFP in a room full of introverted, judgmental bankers. The facilitator's words struck deep: "The bank absolutely needs people like you because you bring the spark, but they'll never welcome you." Years later, an ADHD diagnosis would help Patrick understand why he'd always felt different – and how that difference could become his greatest strength.

When the pandemic hit, Patrick embraced radical change. Sporting a purple mohican and questioning his corporate path, he finally took the leap to establish Change Alchemy, where his unique ability to see solutions others miss has become his superpower. "I see things that you don't see because you're down in your rabbit hole," he explains, perfectly capturing the value he brings to clients.

Despite leaving the security of a corporate salary, Patrick is now "happier than I've ever been in my life." His story isn't just about career transformation – it's about the courage to embrace your authentic self and turn perceived weaknesses into strengths. Whether you're feeling stuck in a job that doesn't value your unique perspective or considering a bold change in direction, Patrick's journey offers both inspiration and practical wisdom.

Ready to solve problems differently? Connect with Patrick at changealchemy.co.uk and discover how embracing your true nature might be the key to unlocking your own potential.

Tune in next week for more stories of 'Distinction & Genius' from The Good Listening To Show 'Clearing'. If you would like to be my Guest too then you can find out HOW via the different 'series strands' at 'The Good Listening To Show' website.

• Show Website: https://www.thegoodlisteningtoshow.com
• You can email me about the Show: chris@secondcurve.uk
• Twitter thatchrisgrimes
• LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-grimes-actor-broadcaster-facilitator-coach/
• FaceBook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/842056403204860

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When Josh Wheeler founded Be Broadcast PR 3 years ago, he was determined to create something different—a PR agency focused not just on securing media coverage, but on telling meaningful stories that unite rather than divide. His journey from a tiny village in the West Midlands to becoming a broadcast PR specialist offers fascinating insights into what truly matters in communication.

(Josh joined Chris Grimes in the Show to 'experience the format from within' to explore the possibility of lending his PR expertise to Chris's special new series-strand to the Show, 'Legacy Life Reflections': To record their or your Life Story, for posterity. "Lest we forget...Before its too late")

During this intimate conversation, Josh reveals how some of his most formative experiences came not from formal education or corporate training, but from early jobs like making tea in a care home at age 11 and working the tills at Tesco. These roles taught him that despite our apparent differences, people from all walks of life share fundamental similarities—a philosophy that now informs Be Broadcast's approach to storytelling.

Josh speaks candidly about his struggles with burnout, discovering that "being busy doesn't necessarily mean being fulfilled," and the challenge of finding balance in a high-pressure industry. His advice to slow down and "be more swan-like"—appearing calm while paddling furiously beneath the surface—offers valuable wisdom for anyone navigating today's frenetic workplace culture.

What makes this episode particularly compelling is Josh's perspective on human connection in an age increasingly dominated by artificial intelligence. While acknowledging AI's transformative potential, he reminds us that technology should complement rather than replace authentic human interaction: "We need to remember our place in all of that."

Whether you're a PR professional or simply someone interested in how we communicate and connect in an increasingly fragmented world, Josh's insights about building businesses with integrity, finding inspiration in "scrappy, imperfect people," and creating work environments that prioritize people over profit will resonate deeply. His call to action—to speak to neighbors, smile at strangers, and engage with people outside our usual circles—offers a simple but powerful antidote to our increasingly isolated digital lives.

Tune in next week for more stories of 'Distinction & Genius' from The Good Listening To Show 'Clearing'. If you would like to be my Guest too then you can find out HOW via the different 'series strands' at 'The Good Listening To Show' website.

• Show Website: https://www.thegoodlisteningtoshow.com
• You can email me about the Show: chris@secondcurve.uk
• Twitter thatchrisgrimes
• LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-grimes-actor-broadcaster-facilitator-coach/
• FaceBook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/842056403204860

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Ever wondered what makes some entrepreneurs thrive while others struggle despite financial success? Tony Robinson OBE, known as "The Happipreneur," reveals the surprising secrets behind his revolutionary approach to Small Business success in this captivating conversation.

From a cozy bench overlooking the sea in "sunny Scarbados" (his affectionate name for Scarborough), Tony shares how his personal journey—including overcoming polio as a child and walking away from corporate success—shaped his mission to transform entrepreneurship. His "Happipreneurship" philosophy challenges conventional wisdom with remarkable results: Businesses following his principles achieve an 80% three-year survival rate compared to Silicon Valley's mere 10%.

Tony's wisdom comes wrapped in delightful stories—from his adventures with 200+ hats to his experiences running marathons after age 60. He reveals how a sabbatical year in Malta transformed his life, leading him to resign from everything that wasn't fulfilling and create a framework for entrepreneurial happiness. His "Pay in 30" campaign tackles the £30 billion cash flow crisis strangling small UK businesses, while his personal mantra—"never have to cross the street to avoid somebody"—offers profound guidance for conducting business with integrity.

The conversation takes unexpected turns through philosophy lessons from future Chief Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks, memories of 600,000 people at the Isle of Wight Festival without a single screen or mobile phone, and Tony's impromptu performance of Muddy Waters' "Got My Mojo Working." Through it all runs a consistent thread: genuine success combines purpose, integrity, and joy.

Whether you're a seasoned entrepreneur or dreaming of starting your own venture, Tony's refreshing perspective will transform how you think about business and life. As he quotes: "None of us ever get out of this alive. So be silly, be kind, be weird—there's no time for anything else."

Tune in next week for more stories of 'Distinction & Genius' from The Good Listening To Show 'Clearing'. If you would like to be my Guest too then you can find out HOW via the different 'series strands' at 'The Good Listening To Show' website.

• Show Website: https://www.thegoodlisteningtoshow.com
• You can email me about the Show: chris@secondcurve.uk
• Twitter thatchrisgrimes
• LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-grimes-actor-broadcaster-facilitator-coach/
• FaceBook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/842056403204860

Don't forget to SUBSCRIBE & REVIEW wherever you get your Podcasts :)

Thanks for listening!