Host Richard Ellis discusses claims from CEOs that “old SEO is dead” and interviews Michael Epps Utley, founder/CEO of GoEpps, who argues “SEO is dead, long live SEO,” with AEO (answer engine optimization) and GEO (generative engine optimization) becoming additions under the SEO umbrella. Utley distinguishes SEO as ranking in search, AEO as ranking in answers, and GEO as ranking in generated answers and sources, noting AI is additive to search and is changing website content toward novel questions and authoritative sourcing (e.g., data journalism). He describes GoEpps’ new AEO product that uses 180 external data points, aggregated into algorithms and metrics, to score brands and competitors from “how the internet sees” them. Key takeaways: stay broad and agile (“keep your knees bent”), expect to buy specialized solutions rather than build, avoid overreliance on new or incomplete metrics, and recognize marketing can’t mask poor operations as reputation becomes central.

Soundbites

1. "SEO is for ranking in search, AEO is for ranking in answers, and GEO is for ranking in generated answers, meaning their sources."
2. "We're not just thinking about keywords and how to be found for people using a search engine. We're also thinking, what do we bring that's new that answers a question nobody else is answering?"
3. "This is like lava in a volcano in Hawaii. It's coming down the mountainside and building new islands."
4. "People were always bouncing around to three or four places to validate something. Now we're seeing additional real estate be built for those interactions."
5. "The pace of change is more radical than people are giving it credit for, and it's going to be more the same than people realize."
6. "We can't live in what I call Pax Googliana, this era of peace where Google was the homepage of the internet. ChatGPT is arguably the homepage of the internet for a lot of people now. So is Grok."
7. "About 90% of companies and agencies are leaning to buy solutions to implement AI rather than build."
8. "In our family we have a saying: keep your knees bent. On boat day, if you're going to walk while the boat's moving, keep your knees bent. This is a keep your knees bent time."
9. "Don't have a quarterly meeting where you commit super hard to one new thing on ChatGPT, because they may flip it tomorrow."
10. "AI is too big a topic for a marketing coordinator, a marketing manager, and frankly a marketing director. Pushing it to one team member to figure out and bring back isn't good leadership."
11. "Marketing can't fix bad operations going forward. In the past marketing could shore up a delivery problem by keeping the inbox full of opportunities. Now reputation is absolutely front and center."
12. "Watch out for any one number that's a brand new metric that didn't exist six months ago, because that stuff's all just forming up right now."
13. "Adaptability and flexibility is just part of the human animal. I really believe the next generation is going to do some amazing stuff."

Michael's business, GoEpps: https://www.goepps.com/
Richard’s business, Revenue Innovations: https://www.revenueinnovations.com

In this episode of Some Goodness, host Richard Ellis welcomes Michael Stahl, CEO of Wombat Data, to discuss why acquisitions often destroy value due to poor execution in the six to 18 months after close. Stahl explains why integration should be treated as an ongoing function that connects the operating model with M&A strategy, especially to build scalable revenue operations and link organic and inorganic growth. He describes integration as a phased, long-tail process with feedback loops to test underwriting theses and refine ideal target profiles, emphasizing data and CRM/system integration as prerequisites for collaboration. The conversation covers go-to-market alignment issues such as coverage strategy, overlays, comp models, minimizing disruption, and encouraging collaboration, plus cultural due diligence focused on day-to-day management rigor and data-driven practices.

Soundbites

• "There's no better way to identify areas that need improvement in a business than trying to explain to a company you buy how your business works."
• "You have to be able to clearly articulate how you run your business, how you run your sales motions, to be able to tell somebody else how to fold into it."
• "When we found it harder to explain or more difficult for a team to fold into, that's usually where we have to pay attention."
• "What happens in the corp dev decks and with the advisors doesn't always translate post close."
• "It's really important to acknowledge that it's a phased plan, that it also will feel a little awkward or clumsy at times as we bring two teams together."
• "It's not just change on the part of the target. It also requires change on the part of the buyer and the buyer's teams, because now we're bringing new people into the conversation."
• "We always wanted to try to err on the side of making decisions that were going to encourage collaboration rather than sort of be myopic and save in the short term."
• "A lot of the culture that I wanted to look at, particularly in a target, was how did they manage day to day. And was the way that we manage as a buyer going to be a culture shock for them?"
• "Is the juice worth the squeeze here? Are we spending the right time on the deals that create the most value and align with the strategy of the company?"
• "There's a phrase that I like. It sounds simple. It's just not easy."
• "That's how I define commitment with my team: awareness and intention. You have to be aware of what's going well, what's not, and then make intentional decisions about what to reinforce and where to course correct."
• "The data became the equalizer or the mediator."

Michael's business, Wombat Data: https://wombatdata.com
Richard’s business, Revenue Innovations: https://www.revenueinnovations.com

Host Richard Ellis interviews Cody Lee, founder of Food Truck Club, a two-sided marketplace that makes booking food trucks for events fast and reliable across markets including Texas, Chicago, and Philadelphia; Cody explains how he “operationalized” an informal trusted intermediary in the food-truck ecosystem, why marketplaces require years to build trust on both sides, and how founder-level accountability restores loyalty. He shares an unconventional Amazon prospecting story, discusses market selection via demand/supply and culture, and closes with guidance that “sales is king” and trust must closely follow.

Soundbites

1. "You can build all the AI agents you want, we can have all the cool gadgets and CRMs out there, but you cannot replace trust."
2. "Trust is built even faster when mistakes happen and get corrected than just doing what you should be doing."
3. "Sales is king and trust is queen."
4. "Businesses typically take a few years to get off the ground, but marketplaces take on average seven years to be successful. Because you're trying to really build that trust."
5. "We say these names like Amazon or PepsiCo and we're trying to sell into these big names. But really it's Robert. It's Anne. There's somebody in there that just happens to work there that's a human. Even though they might have Deloitte in their email, it doesn't mean that they're anybody."
6. "I made an Amazon hat. You can buy the Amazon vests on amazon.com. I dressed like an Amazon employee, and I just walked in and nobody asked any questions... And 80% of the time I made the sale."
7. "Nobody is saying, 'Hey, my boss brought in pizza today' for the 100th time. Nobody's standing in front of the lunch room bragging in a selfie about the spread of Olive Garden in front of them. But everybody is posting a selfie in front of the food truck."
8. "The problems are there, but we just become sort of blind to it... The problem and the solution were already existing the whole time. We just operationalized it and pushed it."
9. "You just don't have people anymore visiting. You don't have people writing handwritten letters anymore. It sounds so small and basic that it seems like it wouldn't work, but it's the opposite."
10. "I see a lot of leaders get stuck in the thick of thin things, and really get into the minutia of something that's good, not great."

Cody’s business, Food Truck Club: https://app.foodtruckclub.com
Richard’s business, Revenue Innovations: https://www.revenueinnovations.com

Host Richard Ellis interviews Michael Stahl, CEO and founder of Wombat Data, about why executives still struggle to get real answers from data despite modern dashboards, data lakes, and BI tools.

Stahl describes persistent issues across industries: siloed enterprise systems, closed or monetized APIs, difficult and costly integration, and the need to incorporate external datasets (e.g., CMS, demographic, geospatial) that are hard to organize and keep current. He explains the “streetlight effect,” where teams analyze only easily accessible data, and shares a healthcare example where layering drive-time and geospatial data helped explain patient no-shows.

Stahl says new AI capabilities can automate access and integration without migrations, keeping data live and enabling leaders to focus on better questions, a clear data strategy, and a few vital business signals rather than KPI proliferation.

Soundbites

• "Every executive has dashboards. Almost none have answers."
• "The parable is if somebody loses their keys, they actually look where the streetlight shines, because that's where the light is. But even if their keys may not be there, they look where they have the most ready access and visibility, even if that's not necessarily the best place to find good answers."
• "It's hard to know what you don't know."
• "You've got a very expensive Ferrari that's in the garage or just going to collect groceries, and we're not getting the highest and best use out of it."
• "Most people ready, fire, aim, and what you're asking them to do is ready, aim, fire."
• "We take the how off the table for you, and you can just focus on the why."
• "One data point may be interesting, but is oftentimes not useful. It's the collection of data points that actually helps us understand relationships."
• "What are the fewest variables that have the biggest impact and produce the clearest signal of success, health, and function in the team?"
• "KPI proliferation or dashboard proliferation actually creates more confusion than clarity."
• "If you dig and come to a point where your business, your team doesn't have the data it needs, it's probably out there, and people can help you find it, and you can access it."

Michael's business, Wombat Data: https://wombatdata.com
Richard’s business, Revenue Innovations: https://www.revenueinnovations.com

Host Richard Ellis and guest Braydan Young (co-founder of Slash Experts, formerly of Sendoso) discuss why B2B buying signals look contradictory (Forrester’s view that ~90% of executives want to buy without talking to sales versus AI-native firms hiring SDRs) and what this means for sellers and leaders. They argue buyers increasingly research via reviews, backchannels, and pilots, and mainly avoid unhelpful reps. AI and avatars can compress the traditional SDR/AE/SE chain so one technical AE can do more, shifting roles toward technical SDRs and go-to-market engineers.

They predict consolidation of point tools into all-in-one platforms while CRMs persist due to security and reliability. Practical advice includes partnerships (especially with consultants/agencies), in-person events, ignoring LinkedIn noise, and staying close to customers; they close by sharing personal fitness goals.

Soundbites

• "Every day there's a new B2B AI tool that someone vibe coded or created. It's amazing how fast the space is moving."
• "They bought you and all your competition, and they're testing all of you and seeing which one sticks. And then at the end of that pilot phase, they leave you."
• "I think the line's 10 grand. If it's over 10 grand, you need a human in the loop."
• "It's not that they don't wanna talk to a rep, it's that they don't wanna talk to a bad rep." (Richard, paraphrasing the buyer shift)
• "You've talked to six people, and the deal size is 24K. That's too many. Your AE, your SDR, and your SE needs to be one person."
• "I think the traditional SDR will go away. But the more technical SDR will be a new job that folks will have."
• "If you have your own CRM that you built with AI and it goes down, it's on you. That's why I don't think it's gonna happen anytime soon."
• "Selling through consultants and agencies is the best, 'cause they are far more trusted than your sales team. They talk about you on a phone call you're not on."
• "Try to do something crazy that's athletic at least once a year. When you're healthy and post-workout, I think way clearer, and that'll only help the company grow faster."

Braydan's business, Slash Experts: https://slashexperts.com/
Richard's business, Revenue Innovations: https://www.revenueinnovations.com/

Host Richard Ellis interviews Jack Siney, co-founder of Front Race, on why AI needs activity/interaction data instead of biased “opinion” data entered by reps, and how rigid, linear CRM workflows miss the nonlinear reality and micro-details of sales, including timing between actions. Jack warns that automating only documented steps can fail because top performers execute additional undocumented steps, and that LLMs can mis-join data and hallucinate without hard metrics. He recommends leaders: consolidate and standardize company data, map the real end-to-end process (including losses), and use a measurement layer to benchmark and evaluate changing AI tools.

Soundbites

• "All the LLMs are using the same open data set. The magic is in your data. You have the answers. If you have a couple of years of legacy data, you've had some success, you've had some failures. The magic is in that data: uncovering what works and what doesn't."
• "We've been measuring metrics for four decades that have no direct correlation to whether we hit the goal."
• "We get rid of our SDRs to automate 20 steps. But the SDRs are actually doing 32 steps. We train the agent on 20 because we don't even know the other 12 exist. Then we wonder why the pilot failed."
• "The magic's in the micro details. Everyone knows the big things: the culture, the pitch, the pricing, the demo. That's not what separates your best reps from your average ones. It's 20 little things."
• "As soon as you rely on the sales rep to put the data in, we're in trouble. Their job depends on having a good pipeline. They're biased. Garbage in, garbage out."
• "Automate the interactions and you get what really happened. It's not someone's opinion."
• "Some of the magic is the time in between the steps. Letting it breathe. I don't know a system out there that tracks the time between each call."

Jack's business, Front Race: https://www.frontrace.com/
Richard's business, Revenue Innovations: https://www.revenueinnovations.com/

The episode argues that relational capital is a strategic resource, citing a 2026 Forbes Human Resources Council article linking trust-based networks to stronger collaboration, faster decisions, and resilient teams. Host Richard Ellis interviews Eddy Arriola, founder of Apollo Bank (2009) and former chairman/CEO until its 2022 acquisition by Seacoast Bank, now a Seacoast board director and author of It’s All About Relationships. Arriola explains his realization that career successes and failures often hinged on relationships, distinguishes true relationship-building from mere charm, and emphasizes meeting people where they are by understanding their pressures and incentives. He introduces his CARPE framework (“seize the relationship”), highlighting “connect” and “prioritization,” including avoiding comfort-zone conversations.

Link to Eddy’s book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0GP9TPQ1Y?tag=scribemedia0a-20&th=1&psc=1&geniuslink=true

Soundbites
"It's all about relationships." (the book title, and the line "that's resonated with people because so many of us have used that a zillion times")
"I really got things done through people... when I started to reflect even on the things that didn't go right in my life... it was because I didn't have the right relationships. I didn't have someone to help me, someone to fall back on."
"It's usually the people that really don't understand sales and marketing that say, 'Oh, that's the relationship guy.'"
"People that are really good at relationships just so happen to be really good with people. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they're good with all people."
"Carpe diem, seize the day, and I'm like, 'Seize the relationship.'"
"All your competitors have really, really, really good products... but it's really about a relationship that you build around."
"All sales is a process. One step logically follows another, and relationship building is very similar."
"You will go to your comfort zone. You will go to the easier conversations or the more fun relationships, and you'll be missing out on others."
"The best thing you can do is be a good listener and a good student and follow up."
"Dig a little deeper... just scratch, keep digging a little deeper and you're gonna get the right information."
"What relationships aren't serving you right now? What are just taking up too much of your time?"
"You are where you are because someone else helped pave the way."

Host Richard Ellis interviews Braydan Young, co-founder of Slash Experts and former Sendoso co-founder, about why most B2B companies rely on the same few reference customers late in deals and lack systems to operationalize social proof. Braden explains how social proof extends beyond reference calls to logos, case studies, reviews, testimonials, and especially short video testimonials, and argues prospects often complete much of the buying journey before talking to sales. Slash Experts addresses the “last-minute scramble” by letting prospects book calls with pre-vetted customers via expert pages, using AI to recommend the best match, automate follow-ups, and nudge buyers with relevant proof while capturing transcripts of customer language. Braydan shares practical CRO steps: test your own reference process, track and thank reference customers, and introduce customer conversations earlier to accelerate stalled deals.

Soundbites

• "80% of the deal cycle is done by the time they're actually hopping on the phone with sales."
• "Everyone has the same 40, 50 logos on their site. How's everybody working with the exact same companies?"
• "Typically it's a scramble at the end. It's, 'Who's the fastest person I can get on the phone so they can check that box?'"
• "You've gone from trying to sell a product to being consultative. All you're trying to do is empower your champion to get the deal done."
• "Social proof is just making someone not feel alone for taking a risk on buying your service." — Braydan Young
• "The way our customer was talking to a prospect about how they used our system was totally different than the way we talked about it. That's the conversation that is gold."
• "If you're a CRO, try to get a reference today for your own company. Go through the process you gave to sales and see what that's like."
• “There's not a lot of separation between work and life anymore. When it's blended well, that's the company everyone wants to work for."

Braydan's business, Slash Experts: https://slashexperts.com/
Richard's business, Revenue Innovations: https://www.revenueinnovations.com/