Host Richard Ellis discusses claims from CEOs that “old SEO is dead” and interviews Michael Epps Utley, founder/CEO of GoEpps, who argues “SEO is dead, long live SEO,” with AEO (answer engine optimization) and GEO (generative engine optimization) becoming additions under the SEO umbrella. Utley distinguishes SEO as ranking in search, AEO as ranking in answers, and GEO as ranking in generated answers and sources, noting AI is additive to search and is changing website content toward novel questions and authoritative sourcing (e.g., data journalism). He describes GoEpps’ new AEO product that uses 180 external data points, aggregated into algorithms and metrics, to score brands and competitors from “how the internet sees” them. Key takeaways: stay broad and agile (“keep your knees bent”), expect to buy specialized solutions rather than build, avoid overreliance on new or incomplete metrics, and recognize marketing can’t mask poor operations as reputation becomes central.

Soundbites

1. "SEO is for ranking in search, AEO is for ranking in answers, and GEO is for ranking in generated answers, meaning their sources."
2. "We're not just thinking about keywords and how to be found for people using a search engine. We're also thinking, what do we bring that's new that answers a question nobody else is answering?"
3. "This is like lava in a volcano in Hawaii. It's coming down the mountainside and building new islands."
4. "People were always bouncing around to three or four places to validate something. Now we're seeing additional real estate be built for those interactions."
5. "The pace of change is more radical than people are giving it credit for, and it's going to be more the same than people realize."
6. "We can't live in what I call Pax Googliana, this era of peace where Google was the homepage of the internet. ChatGPT is arguably the homepage of the internet for a lot of people now. So is Grok."
7. "About 90% of companies and agencies are leaning to buy solutions to implement AI rather than build."
8. "In our family we have a saying: keep your knees bent. On boat day, if you're going to walk while the boat's moving, keep your knees bent. This is a keep your knees bent time."
9. "Don't have a quarterly meeting where you commit super hard to one new thing on ChatGPT, because they may flip it tomorrow."
10. "AI is too big a topic for a marketing coordinator, a marketing manager, and frankly a marketing director. Pushing it to one team member to figure out and bring back isn't good leadership."
11. "Marketing can't fix bad operations going forward. In the past marketing could shore up a delivery problem by keeping the inbox full of opportunities. Now reputation is absolutely front and center."
12. "Watch out for any one number that's a brand new metric that didn't exist six months ago, because that stuff's all just forming up right now."
13. "Adaptability and flexibility is just part of the human animal. I really believe the next generation is going to do some amazing stuff."

Michael's business, GoEpps: https://www.goepps.com/
Richard’s business, Revenue Innovations: https://www.revenueinnovations.com