Donna Marie Fullerton is the creator of Food for the Soul, a writer, and a former qualitative research consultant whose curiosity about people has shaped her work for decades. Her writing explores gratitude, joy, personal development, and what she calls Soul Flow and Soul Masculinity.

An idea that began in the 1990s with reflections on her father has evolved into a larger body of work that now includes essays and interviews with fathers. Donna Marie is still exploring whether that work will eventually become a book, podcast, program, or something else.

In this conversation, we discuss how ideas evolve, how work and life can support one another, what her father taught her about developing judgment, and why trusted mentors and peers matter when navigating uncertainty.

Donna Marie and I discuss:

• [00:04:27] Creating Soul Flow through work-life integration
• [00:09:40] How an idea about fathers evolved over decades
• [00:14:01] Learning judgment and trust from Donna Marie's father
• [00:17:23] Leading with kindness and vulnerability
• [00:20:35] How mentors and peers support evolving ideas
• [00:24:11] Exploring what Soul Masculinity might become

Learn more about Donna Marie and her work:

• Food for the Soul on Substack
• The Freedom Zone: Your Gateway to Love, Liberty and Happiness

About Smashing the Plateau

Smashing the Plateau features candid conversations with experienced professionals who are building businesses around their expertise and creating greater control over their work and their lives.

Each episode explores the decisions, challenges, and opportunities that come with independent work, drawing on the experiences and perspectives of people who have navigated them firsthand.

Take the Next Step

Better decisions begin with seeing your situation more clearly. Get the free SMASH System™ Self-Assessment at SmashingThePlateau.com/clarity.

Carol Kaemmerer is an executive branding and influence strategist and the author of LinkedIn for the Savvy Executive. After more than 20 years as a marketing communications consultant for a Fortune 500 company, she now helps senior executives get clear on what they stand for and build the visibility and credibility that lead to new opportunities.

In 2011, the company Carol had served for two decades outsourced its marketing communications work, and she realized she had looked after its brand far better than her own. She went on to build a business helping executives tell their stories. Years later, her business coach pointed out that being identified solely with LinkedIn was not serving her, and Carol began to reconsider how she describes her work. She reflects on the self-blame that can follow losing a client, on a question that changed one client’s career direction, and on the difference between work many people can do and work only you can do.

Carol and I discuss:

• [00:02:22] What losing a 20-year client in 2011 revealed
• [00:05:38] The self-blame that followed
• [00:07:29] How unexpected referrals became a business
• [00:11:25] A sales leader, a volunteer question, and a new role
• [00:16:37] Building a network beyond one company
• [00:18:19] Her coach’s advice about being identified with LinkedIn
• [00:18:54] Spending her time on the work only she can do

Learn more about Carol at:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carolkaemmerer

Website: https://carolkaemmerer.com

Book: https://carolkaemmerer.com/books

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About Smashing the Plateau

Smashing the Plateau features candid conversations with experienced professionals who are building businesses around their expertise and creating greater control over their work and their lives.

Each episode explores the decisions, challenges, and opportunities that come with independent work, drawing on the experiences and perspectives of people who have navigated them firsthand.

Take the Next Step

Better decisions begin with seeing your situation more clearly. Get the free SMASH System™ Self-Assessment at SmashingThePlateau.com/clarity.

Wesley Henderson is more than just a business attorney—he's an entrepreneur who understands firsthand the challenges and opportunities of running a business. As the founder of multiple ventures, including Henderson & Henderson, Driving for Downs, Inc., and Drafted Legal, he brings real-world experience to his legal practice. Wesley helps business owners across South Carolina navigate complex legal issues, from startup formation and partnership agreements to employment law and business litigation.

With a passion for serving business owners, Wesley believes these businesses are the backbone of our communities—delivering the best services and creating meaningful local impact. His goal is to provide practical, business-minded legal solutions that help entrepreneurs protect and grow their companies with confidence.

A magna cum laude graduate of Wofford College, Wesley earned his law degree from the University of South Carolina School of Law, where he was awarded the prestigious Justice J.B. Ness Scholarship. He is also a South Carolina Bar Certified Mediator, helping businesses resolve disputes efficiently.

Outside the office, Wesley enjoys spending time with his wife, Mary Katherine, and their three energetic sons on James Island. When he's not keeping up with them, you'll likely find him on the golf course with friends.

Wesley's conversation with David traces the gap between being good at legal work and learning to run the business behind it — a shift that took years, and a fractional COO, to fully take hold. He talks about the hires he wishes he'd made sooner, the weekly leadership meeting that turned good ideas into actual decisions, and the partnership dynamics he sees go wrong most often with clients. The conversation also gets into where AI genuinely helps in a law practice and where it still requires a careful, responsible hand.

Wesley and I discuss:

• [02:13] – Building Henderson & Henderson with his brother, and growing the firm from two people to more than twenty
• [06:46] – The hires he wishes he'd made sooner, and the fear that held him back from bringing in help earlier
• [08:47] – Learning to treat the business as its own project, with a rolling plan that starts at ten years and narrows down to the quarter
• [09:15] – Why stepping out of the office for a weekly leadership meeting changed how decisions actually got made
• [11:38] – The recurring theme behind the partnership disputes he sees most often between clients
• [13:45] – Building compensation structures flexible enough to adjust as partners' life circumstances change
• [15:05] – Clearing up the confusion between LLCs and S corps for people starting a business
• [15:44– Where AI genuinely helps with contracts and client work, and where it still requires careful review
• [21:17] – Where he turns for outside perspective, from friends to a fractional COO

Learn more about Wesley at: https://draftedlegal.com/legalbundle/ and https://hhlawsc.com/

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About Smashing the Plateau

Smashing the Plateau features candid conversations with experienced professionals who are building businesses around their expertise and creating greater control over their work and their lives.

Each episode explores the decisions, challenges, and opportunities that come with independent work, drawing on the experiences and perspectives of people who have navigated them firsthand.

Take the Next Step

Better decisions begin with seeing your situation more clearly. Get the free SMASH System™ Self-Assessment at SmashingThePlateau.com/clarity.

Steve Guberman is the founder of Agency Outsight, where he helps agency owners build the business of their dreams—with clarity, purpose, and profit. A former agency founder who successfully exited his own firm, Steve now guides creative, marketing, and digital leaders through growth, positioning, and the complex decisions that come with scaling or selling an agency. Drawing on his experience as both a coach and M&A advisor, he helps owners understand what truly drives long-term value—financially and personally. As host of the Agency Bytes podcast, Steve shares real stories and lessons from top agency leaders to help others grow with intention.

Steve and I talk about what happens when agency owners chase what he calls "copycat goals"—revenue milestones and lifestyle markers borrowed from other people's social media feeds—instead of deciding what they actually want their business to give them. That question turns out to matter whether or not you ever plan to sell: the same work that makes a business sellable (reducing owner dependency, diversifying client concentration, building real systems) is often the same work that gives an owner back their time, their confidence, and a life that doesn't revolve around a business they secretly resent. Steve is candid about building himself a "job" rather than a business early in his career, and about the client concentration crisis and personal upheaval that eventually pushed him to sell.

Steve and I discuss:

• [02:17] – How Steve defines "agency," and why specificity matters when describing what you do
• [04:07] – What led him to start his own agency after working in-house and at other firms
• [05:03] – Winning an outsized contract, doubling in size, and the client concentration problem that followed
• [05:45] – How a divorce and losing his largest client collided in the same week
• [06:08] – How he approached selling the agency without any M&A experience, and why he chose the offer he did
• [07:28] – Why he now advises other agency owners going through the same journey
• [07:52] – Why so many owners have built a job with little market value rather than a sellable business
• [08:26] – The trap of building a new boss for yourself that you can't fire
• [10:13] – How long it typically takes to make a business valuable to a buyer
• [11:00] – Why Steve is at peace with his own current business not being sellable
• [11:48] – The main "discount factors" buyers look at: owner dependency, client concentration, and cash flow
• [14:05] – "Copycat goals," and why adopting someone else's milestones can work against you
• [15:01] – Optionality as the real payoff of optimizing a business, whether or not you sell
• [16:30] – Why business size isn't the real obstacle to delegating
• [17:26] – The owner's audit: identifying what you shouldn't be doing yourself
• [18:37] – Using freelancers, offshore talent, and AI to delegate affordably at any stage
• [19:00] – The mindset shift—letting go of control—that has to happen before delegation works
• [20:17] – How peer support and community help owners follow through on delegation and mindset shifts

Learn more about Steve at:

agencyoutsight.com

agencyoutsight.com/podcast

www.linkedin.com/in/agencycoach

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About Smashing the Plateau

Smashing the Plateau features candid conversations with experienced professionals who are building businesses around their expertise and creating greater control over their work and their lives.

Each episode explores the decisions, challenges, and opportunities that come with independent work, drawing on the experiences and perspectives of people who have navigated them firsthand.

Take the Next Step

Better decisions begin with seeing your situation more clearly. Get the free SMASH System™ Self-Assessment at SmashingThePlateau.com/clarity.

James Hayden is a fractional CRO and go-to-market strategist who fixes broken B2B sales engines. Over 38 years, he has influenced more than $1B in revenue across 140+ companies, helping founders and leaders rebuild positioning, pipeline, and scalable revenue systems. He is the author of "Real World Selling: The Art of the Selling Conversation" and "Adapt or Die." Based in Seattle, James blends hard-won sales leadership with a personal story of resilience and reinvention.

James's conversation goes beyond sales strategy. He talks candidly about the insecurities that shaped much of his career, what it was like to understand those experiences differently later in life, and why he believes vulnerability, offered first, tends to invite more of it from others. He also describes the specific role he plays as a fractional executive, why he insists on fixing the underlying process before adding technology, and how he thinks about recognizing when an organization needs outside expertise to move past a plateau.

James and I discuss:

[01:38] James's personal story of resilience and reinvention, and why he believes every executive carries some form of trauma

[02:31] Discovering his birth family in his forties, and, more recently, twelve half-siblings through Ancestry.com

[03:09] How his early insecurities became what he calls "rocket fuel" for his career

[05:15] Why sharing vulnerability changes the nature of a relationship

[05:50] His approach to creating space for someone else to open up: go first

[08:27] Outworking everyone as a response to insecurity, and what it cost him at home

[09:22] The fear that drove him for years and how he now thinks about its cost

[11:12] The niche he occupies as a practitioner with a system, and becoming a "conscious competent" by writing his book

[13:40] Where AI actually fits in a sales organization, and why a broken process just produces bad data faster

[15:03] Why working as a fractional CRO means staying hands-on rather than handing over a report

[15:27] How he thinks about organizations that have hit a plateau, and when it's time to bring in outside help

[18:35] The role trusted peers and mentors have played in his own career

[20:55] The blunt advice from a Seattle real estate developer that stuck with him for decades

[22:00] What he's learned from younger colleagues and the idea of being a “mentern,” part mentor and part intern

Learn more about James at:

Website: https://jamesbhayden.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jimhayden

Book: Real World Selling | Free GTM diagnostic: https://jamesbhayden.com/book-gtm-diagnostic/

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About Smashing the Plateau

Smashing the Plateau features candid conversations with experienced professionals who are building businesses around their expertise and creating greater control over their work and their lives.

Each episode explores the decisions, challenges, and opportunities that come with independent work, drawing on the experiences and perspectives of people who have navigated them firsthand.

Take the Next Step

Better decisions begin with seeing your situation more clearly. Get the free SMASH System™ Self-Assessment at SmashingThePlateau.com/clarity.

Anita Sandoval is a Licensed Professional Counselor Supervisor (LPC-S), EMDR therapist, author, and host of Empowering Women in Conversations. She helps women break free from people-pleasing, heal from trauma, rebuild self-trust, and create healthy boundaries. Through her work, Anita combines psychology, neuroscience, and practical strategies to help women stop losing themselves in relationships and start living authentically with confidence and resilience.

Anita's path to building an independent practice involved repeatedly choosing her own judgment over the expectations of the people around her, whether that meant moving her work online years before telehealth was common, stepping back from contracts that no longer served her, or letting go of friendships that no longer fit who she was becoming. She and David talk about what that kind of independence actually costs, including the self-doubt that comes with making decisions alone and the loneliness that can follow when you outgrow a community before you've found the next one. Anita's perspective is that this in-between period isn't something to avoid or rush through, but a necessary part of figuring out your own values and finding the people who share them.

Anita and I discuss:

• [01:59] How a strong need for mental health support in the Rio Grande Valley, particularly within Mexican culture, shaped her path into counseling
• [03:00] Why she believes women face particular pressure to conform, drawing on what she observed as a teacher
• [04:54] Being called "arrogant" and "difficult" for insisting on her own autonomy
• [07:20] Opening a telehealth practice years before COVID, despite skepticism from her community and her supervisor
• [09:32] Breaking a three-generation pattern of abuse and neglect by deliberately choosing a different path
• [11:29] How she manages self-doubt while running a solo practice without a built-in support system
• [14:27] What changes between online and in-person connection, and what may not
• [16:32] What it takes to build growth and momentum for an online counseling practice
• [19:06] Moving from taking on every available contract to niching down and working primarily by referral
• [21:31] Her advice for finding a community that provides long-term support
• [22:00] Why she believes "motivation is garbage" and intentionality is what actually drives change
• [22:54] Embracing the loneliness of outgrowing old relationships and identities while figuring out who you are

Learn more about Anita at:

• https://anitasandoval.com
• https://www.anitasandoval.com/newsletters/therapist-tea-things-i-notice-in-therapy
• https://www.anitasandoval.com/podcast-directories
• https://www.anitasandoval.com/why-am-i-so-tired-subscribe

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About Smashing the Plateau

Smashing the Plateau features candid conversations with experienced professionals who are building businesses around their expertise and creating greater control over their work and their lives.

Each episode explores the decisions, challenges, and opportunities that come with independent work, drawing on the experiences and perspectives of people who have navigated them firsthand.

Take the Next Step

Better decisions begin with seeing your situation more clearly. Get the free SMASH System™ Self-Assessment at SmashingThePlateau.com/clarity.

Janylène Turcotte spent 25 years as a senior HR executive, the last eight at Deloitte — a career built on guiding others through transition and transformation. Then her own role ended on someone else's terms, and she learned firsthand how wide the gap can be between knowing what to do and being able to do it. Today, as founder of Hypnocoach, she's led over 1,500 sessions helping founders and senior leaders rebuild their identity after a major career or business transition. Her method: Peel Back, Rewire, Rise.

In this conversation, Janylene traces her own path from job loss to sobriety to building a business, and what she learned along the way about the gap between knowing what you should do and being able to do it. She and David talk about the strange void that follows a major transition, the role an "in-between" job can play while you figure out what's next, and why having people in your life who will challenge you honestly — not just support you — matters more than most people realize. Much of the conversation also centers on the entrepreneurs Janylene works with as they exit their own businesses: the identity questions that surface once the deal is done, how power shifts between buyer and seller, and why the transition that follows a sale can take years rather than months.

Janylene and I discuss:

• [00:02:43] The sudden void after leaving corporate
• [00:04:32] The interview that changed her direction
• [00:06:14] Building a support team
• [00:11:10] Navigating the sale of a business
• [00:12:39] How power shifts after a sale
• [00:16:10] Giving trusted people permission to challenge you
• [00:20:41] Building relationships online and in person

Learn more about Janylene at https://link.hypnocoach.ca/widget/bookings/janylene-turcotte-personal-calendar-yqnwtklhsshegli

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About Smashing the Plateau

Smashing the Plateau features candid conversations with experienced professionals who are building businesses around their expertise and creating greater control over their work and their lives.

Each episode explores the decisions, challenges, and opportunities that come with independent work, drawing on the experiences and perspectives of people who have navigated them firsthand.

Take the Next Step

Better decisions begin with seeing your situation more clearly. Get the free SMASH System™ Self-Assessment at SmashingThePlateau.com/clarity.