First things first, fun without Dave already happened. Ron and Ben saw The Casualties, Adolescents, Adicts, and Dwarves. All of those bands have been around for a long time - like 30-40 years - and that definitely doesn't make us old.

It's another Bad Religion episode title. They put on a badass show at Punk in the Park, and they're old like us, too.

This episode is sort of a nod to Fletcher. Yep, he broke your guitar. No, he wasn't trying to be a real asshole. Fat Mike knows that's part of punk. Sometimes you have to go to the hospital to live what you say you believe. The circle pit is a fundamental part of a punk show, but you might lose a tooth while you're in there. When you fall down, though, the pit is a family. Everyone has your back, man.

Sometimes people are dicks (yeah, us too, even if we try hard not to be), but it seems to be a weakness in safety that there's not a lot of room for defending our process of belief. We've talked about dogma in safety before, but this is different. This is a conversation about how we deliver and receive dissent.

Contemporary safety has grown a lot in terms of talking about empathy and understanding context, and that bails on it completely at the first sign of skepticism. Let's talk about the fundamental attribution error as something we need to be aware of and minimize, and then just assume the worst of people at work or in life. Is it just us?

Stealing (and paraphrasing) from Carsten Busch a little bit, shouldn't the "New View" be asking why things made sense to Heinrich - or others - instead of judging it based on the standards of today?

It's not a consequence-free world, though. Swapping skepticism for assholery might mean living with the knock-on effects of a decision. But starting with the assumption that everyone wants a safe company, we're just sorting out the details.

That means that learning about rules, biases, and beliefs isn't just learning about others - we have to apply the same standards to ourselves. Context, intent, care, and system design aren't just things that shape others; we own them too.

Way back in Episode 1, we promised to try and avoid corruption between process and intent. It's sometimes uncomfortable to have to explain our beliefs, but that's a feature, not a bug.

"Don't hear what I didn't say" might be a good way to start.

DISCLAIMER: You probably shouldn't take anything in this podcast too seriously. Punk Rock Safety is for entertainment only. It's definitely not a replacement for professional or legal advice, and the fair amount of piss-taking, shithousery, and general ridiculousness ought to clue you into the fact that no one - and no organization - is endorsing (or un-endorsing, if that's a thing) any products, ideas, or other things. Except NOFX. We definitely endorse them.

Oh, and give your money to Punk Rock Saves Lives. They're a rad organization that works in mental health, addiction, and human rights. And they're awesome people who can use your help to keep on kicking ass at what they do.

https://www.punkrocksaveslives.org/

Let us know what you think at info@punkrocksafety.com or on our LinkedIn page.

Merch at punkrocksafetymerch.com

It's a deep cut, but it's another NOFX song title for the episode.

Probably don't go to work wasted, but if you do, make sure you talk about it in the pre-job brief.

Pre-job, or pre-task, or pre-work briefs - or whatever you want to call them - are sort of a contentious topic these days. On one hand, they're often connected to JSA/JHA paperwork, and that's not always helpful. There are exceptions, but there are a whole pile of bad ones out there. Shit like, "It's cold out there, folks, so make sure you watch your footing."

Cool. That helps.

A real pre-job brief isn't about paperwork, though. It's about alignment of understanding and expectations (or a shared mental model if that makes you happy). Think of it like using small words and speaking slowly to make sure the bass player knows what's going on.

Good pre-job conversations help identify a lot more issues and deviations from normal work than filling out paper for the purpose of satisfying a (sometimes imaginary) rule. Bad ones are a way to exercise control. And reinforce that people can't take care of themselves.

Ron's got a pretty easy on-ramp to talk about joint activity for this one, so make sure to pay attention to that part. As much shit as we give him about it, he does know a thing or two about coordination of work across boundaries, like what you see between contractors and subs, or even between trades or specialties.

We can't give people a process and no capability, as Dave says, and that's what overstructuring a pre-job brief through form or process can do. So how can we facilitate good pre-work discussions? Maybe think about some not-lazy perspective where the purpose isn't the paper, it's to plan the work, identify challenges to it, and build in a bit of buffer between the shit that might kill us.

DISCLAIMER: You probably shouldn't take anything in this podcast too seriously. Punk Rock Safety is for entertainment only. It's definitely not a replacement for professional or legal advice, and the fair amount of piss-taking, shithousery, and general ridiculousness ought to clue you into the fact that no one - and no organization - is endorsing (or un-endorsing, if that's a thing) any products, ideas, or other things. Except NOFX. We definitely endorse them.

Oh, and give your money to Punk Rock Saves Lives. They're a rad organization that works in mental health, addiction, and human rights. And they're awesome people who can use your help to keep on kicking ass at what they do.

https://www.punkrocksaveslives.org/

Let us know what you think at info@punkrocksafety.com or on our LinkedIn page.

Merch at punkrocksafetymerch.com

Another listener question. How good, right?

The question? "I am still learning how to apply HOP principles. Can you talk about how they can be used to help us see and respond to risks that never show up in incident data?"

It's sort of a version of asking how we know what's happening when nothing is happening, and how the five principles of HOP, if you're into that sort of thing, support that. What five principles, you ask? The ones from Todd Conklin are: 1) Error is normal; 2) Blame fixes nothing; 3) Context drives behavior; 4) Learning and improving are vital; 5) Leadership response matters.

Ron starts by answering the question he wishes we were asked, and inadvertently points to some really cool info from the ICAO Human Performance Manual, Document 10151. It's not part of the actual answer, but you should still check it out.

Back to the matter at hand, trying to find problems isn't the same as trying to apply principles. Incident data can’t tell you everything, but maybe leaning on the intent of the HOP principles can help uncover weak signals hiding in plain sight. No principles will do the work for us, though, and it’s not about finding broken procedures, either. It’s about finding brittle systems, understanding everyday trade-offs, and asking way better questions.

Dave's recipe for success? Give up the 80% of "face-to-screen" time a lot of safety folks waste and get face-to-work (or face-to-face, or whatever else you want to put your face on). There's more to it, but the boys suggest we all stop looking through the rearview mirror and start paying attention to what’s just up ahead. Also: yes, there’s a glory hole analogy, and no, we’re not sorry.

The only thing that makes this episode better? A quote from a superfan posted a little while ago on LinkedIn. Fully out of context and in all its glory: "...never mind the quality, feel the width!"

Want to learn more? Listen to the episode!

DISCLAIMER: You probably shouldn't take anything in this podcast too seriously. Punk Rock Safety is for entertainment only. It's definitely not a replacement for professional or legal advice, and the fair amount of piss-taking, shithousery, and general ridiculousness ought to clue you into the fact that no one - and no organization - is endorsing (or un-endorsing, if that's a thing) any products, ideas, or other things. Except NOFX. We definitely endorse them.

Oh, and give your money to Punk Rock Saves Lives. They're a rad organization that works in mental health, addiction, and human rights. And they're awesome people who can use your help to keep on kicking ass at what they do.

https://www.punkrocksaveslives.org/

Let us know what you think at info@punkrocksafety.com or on our LinkedIn page.

Merch at punkrocksafetymerch.com

We're finally back to a NOFX song title, so things are looking up. A lot of the time, when we decide someone did something dumb, we say things like "dude, how'd you fuck that up, it should just be common sense." It's a good way to distance ourselves, blame someone, and be fucking lazy all at the same time. But what is "common sense" anyway?

Sometimes it seems like what we're trying to do is take credit for good luck and call it common sense. Taking credit for something you didn't create sounds like some big record label behavior, doesn't it? And maybe that's it. Maybe common sense is just a label used to feel powerful.

The boys kick around a few ideas, trying to decide whether common sense is something innate, taught, or based on experience - or all three. That sort of opens the door to wondering about where expertise comes from. If common sense is just a catalog of knowledge, you'd never cover it all, so maybe the intention is about knowing how to think or reason through uncertainty. Like when the Ceschi from the Codefendants' amp quit working at Punk in Drublic. They still put on one of their best shows by figuring it out as they went along. That kind of response seems to be what we mean a lot of times.

After the normal rambling discussion, the conversation takes a surprising turn toward relevance, with some ideas about acceleration of expertise and some of the generational gaps that seem to make discussions about common sense a little more rowdy.

You should probably just listen to the episode and see if you can figure out the answer. Why? It's common sense, dumbass.

DISCLAIMER: You probably shouldn't take anything in this podcast too seriously. Punk Rock Safety is for entertainment only. It's definitely not a replacement for professional or legal advice, and the fair amount of piss-taking, shithousery, and general ridiculousness ought to clue you into the fact that no one - and no organization - is endorsing (or un-endorsing, if that's a thing) any products, ideas, or other things. Except NOFX. We definitely endorse them.

Oh, and give your money to Punk Rock Saves Lives. They're a rad organization that works in mental health, addiction, and human rights. And they're awesome people who can use your help to keep on kicking ass at what they do.

https://www.punkrocksaveslives.org/

Let us know what you think at info@punkrocksafety.com or on our LinkedIn page.

Merch at punkrocksafetymerch.com

Fine, Simple Plan is only sort of punk. Or punk adjacent. They're about as pop punk as pop punk gets. But it makes for a decent episode name.

Why, because safety strategy gets oversimplified a lot. Or really, the idea of it gets oversimplified.

Most safety strategy is a lot of BS anyway that ends up not being strategic at all.

The boys talk about whether or not a safety strategy is even useful. Ron says yes, which is a little surprising given his stance in Episode 2 that safety people aren't really that necessary. Ben and Dave (and probably Ron, too) instead argue that what we call strategy is mostly just a PowerPoint-flavored attempt at looking busy and useful.

Safety isn't the business. It's a support function (a really important one, but it's still support, not the product) like accounting and HR. Those folks are rocking out 3-year strategy plans with big ideas about how Accounts Payable will be reinventing finance.

The organization has a strategic view - a big one - that other departments and divisions are meant to support.

So maybe the best safety strategy is how we draw connections to support the broader strategy. You value innovation? Cool. We'd better get confident in how we understand risk and build systems that allow us to experiment without things turning into chaos. What'd you say about profitability? If we're working hard to understand work and get rid of dumb stuff, we're increasing efficiency.

Aside from those discussions, a whole lot of safety is tactical, right? That's where adaptability lives, and that's usually a part of what we want. Drawing out a three-year plan doesn't really scream adaptability - at least in the way it's often done.

The principles we're trying to achieve in safety don't really change, do they? It's the day-to-day management of risk and adaptation that does, and that means it isn't strategy. So, instead of creating problems to solve and putting them on a slide deck, maybe it's better to identify the top one or two things that really need our attention and go solve for those.

That's how experts work - not that the boys are experts - but it's a good indicator that your teams aren't checking in on the mission and vision posters as they make safety decisions.

Cool. Carry on, punks.

DISCLAIMER: You probably shouldn't take anything in this podcast too seriously. Punk Rock Safety is for entertainment only. It's definitely not a replacement for professional or legal advice, and the fair amount of piss-taking, shithousery, and general ridiculousness ought to clue you into the fact that no one - and no organization - is endorsing (or un-endorsing, if that's a thing) any products, ideas, or other things. Except NOFX. We definitely endorse them.

Oh, and give your money to Punk Rock Saves Lives. They're a rad organization that works in mental health, addiction, and human rights. And they're awesome people who can use your help to keep on kicking ass at what they do.

https://www.punkrocksaveslives.org/

Let us know what you think at info@punkrocksafety.com or on our LinkedIn page.

Merch at punkrocksafetymerch.com

This episode dives into what it really means to “do safety” when your job is inherently dangerous, like military, police, or even things like aviation.

The strategy has to be at least a little better than Live Fast, Die Young (that's the title of this episode, and for once it's not NOFX, but if you're cool, you know this one, too).

Ben, Ron, David, and their guest James Kolozsi (who’s got cred from his time in the military, police, municipal, and oil & gas) kick things off with the usual eight minutes of bullshit or so, but eventually get into the meat of the topic: in some jobs, you can’t pretend risk doesn’t exist. Instead, you have to own it, plan for it, and train like hell to deal with it.

James shares how, in the military, you don’t get to hit pause and fill out a risk assessment when things go sideways. Instead, it’s all about situational awareness, understanding threats (not just risks), and being ready to adapt on the fly. It's sort of about doing what you signed up for, too, but not applying that same logic to folks who aren't willing participants.

The boys talk about how, in these high-risk worlds, safety isn’t just a checklist or a pile of paperwork—it’s baked into the core of operations.

Training is relentless, and the focus is on building real capability, not just compliance. There’s a lot of talk about how this mindset is different from what you see in most industries, where safety can sometimes feel like a box-ticking exercise.

The conversation also hits on the limits of procedures and the importance of sharing practical know-how; those “rules of thumb” that only come from experience. In the end, the takeaway is that in jobs where danger is part of the deal, you can’t eliminate risk, but you can give people the tools, training, and support to successfully adapt to it. And maybe the rest of the safety world could learn a thing or two from that approach.

DISCLAIMER: You probably shouldn't take anything in this podcast too seriously. Punk Rock Safety is for entertainment only. It's definitely not a replacement for professional or legal advice, and the fair amount of piss-taking, shithousery, and general ridiculousness ought to clue you into the fact that no one - and no organization - is endorsing (or un-endorsing, if that's a thing) any products, ideas, or other things. Except NOFX. We definitely endorse them.

Oh, and give your money to Punk Rock Saves Lives. They're a rad organization that works in mental health, addiction, and human rights. And they're awesome people who can use your help to keep on kicking ass at what they do.

https://www.punkrocksaveslives.org/

Let us know what you think at info@punkrocksafety.com or on our LinkedIn page.

Merch at punkrocksafetymerch.com

Ian Madison rolls in with a background of ethically hunted animals (that's what he told us), evidence of like eight million Bad Religion shows, and some serious desire to talk about how traditional safety measurements are about as useful as a broken guitar string. Not a bass string, because a broken bass string is about as useful as the rest of them anyway.

Seriously, though. Check out the video on YouTube to see what Ian has going on behind him.

The episode title is one of the best punk albums of all time, The Process of Belief, from Bad Religion. It's a shoutout to Ian, and it's also a reference to the way we get hung up on our beliefs about what makes us safer and how we know. More on that in a minute.

We've already had an episode on metrics, but Ian was driving this one, and even though it sounds like a lot of measurement talk and bashing on TRIR, it's really an episode about the things that take attention away from what matters. And bashing TRIR. Weirdly, Ian can get away with a lot more than Ron on that topic.

Matt Hollowell and the CSRA get name-dropped for actually making sense, too. Not sure this podcast was the publicity they want, but you get what you get sometimes.

The boys cover a lot of ground on this one: spiders, tailgate-to-person ratio, donuts and cheeseburgers, and whiskey. It moves almost as fast as Smelly's foot during Linoleum. And that's pretty fast.

Back to the episode. It's seriously good. Like, just some dudes in a bar talking about safety stuff good. Ian has a way of simplifying concepts, smashing them into a story, and bringing people along in a way that makes a lot of sense. This episode has got a lot of exactly that.

And the boys may have talked him into joining the Second Annual Punk Rock Safety Field Trip in LA this October.

DISCLAIMER: You probably shouldn't take anything in this podcast too seriously. Punk Rock Safety is for entertainment only. It's definitely not a replacement for professional or legal advice, and the fair amount of piss-taking, shithousery, and general ridiculousness ought to clue you into the fact that no one - and no organization - is endorsing (or un-endorsing, if that's a thing) any products, ideas, or other things. Except NOFX. We definitely endorse them.

Oh, and give your money to Punk Rock Saves Lives. They're a rad organization that works in mental health, addiction, and human rights. And they're awesome people who can use your help to keep on kicking ass at what they do.

https://www.punkrocksaveslives.org/

Let us know what you think at info@punkrocksafety.com or on our LinkedIn page.

Merch at punkrocksafetymerch.com

Even though they're not really into punk rock, Michael and Taylor from Imperial Oil are pretty badass (and the title of this episode is a NOFX song that Michael somehow remembered, so we'll take it). And they're movie stars in a video from Energy Safety Canada about the 4Ds from Learning Teams, Inc.

The Imperial boys are the first to tell you they aren't safety people - they're field ops guys just trying to solve some problems. Pretty fucking punk, right? Shit wasn't going the way it should, so they just figured out what would work. Not perfection, but progress. "If you just go in and do it, and you do it from a place of caring," people are going to be on board.

What the hell are the 4Ds Michael and Taylor are talking about (5 if you count Provan, because he's a D for sure)? They're questions about what folks see at work that are dumb, difficult, different, or dangerous.

Turns out talking to people about work does some other stuff too: like a 53% reduction in absenteeism and massive increases in time-on-tool productivity. Weird, right? Figuring out how work gets done and addressing it like an adult helps make work suck less.

For a lot of people, punk rock is a catalyst for being heard, for building family, and for expressing how they feel. For the teams at Imperial, using something like the 4Ds was a catalyst, too. Sometimes, it identified some problems that looked a whole lot like the supervisors and leaders in the organization. Those are tough conversations (like how bass players and ska bands are the problem a lot of times, too), but the boys took the conversations on and did the hard yards to figure out how to make leadership better.

Asking questions isn't the solution, though, and that's why you should check out the rest of the episode. Michael and Taylor have got a lot more to share about how they started learning about performance, labels, and leadership. They're pretty punk without even trying, and that's "The punkest mother fucker I ever did see. Ah hell, he's even more punk than me." Got a NOFX quote in there after all, punks. Shoulda gone for Propaghandi, since they're a Canadian band, but whatever.

The Energy Safety Canada video on the 4Ds

The Learning Teams, Inc. folks, home of the 4Ds, are here

DISCLAIMER: You probably shouldn't take anything in this podcast too seriously. Punk Rock Safety is for entertainment only. It's definitely not a replacement for professional or legal advice, and the fair amount of piss-taking, shithousery, and general ridiculousness ought to clue you into the fact that no one - and no organization - is endorsing (or un-endorsing, if that's a thing) any products, ideas, or other things. Except NOFX. We definitely endorse them.

Oh, and give your money to Punk Rock Saves Lives. They're a rad organization that works in mental health, addiction, and human rights. And they're awesome people who can use your help to keep on kicking ass at what they do.

https://www.punkrocksaveslives.org/

Let us know what you think at info@punkrocksafety.com or on our LinkedIn page.

Merch at punkrocksafetymerch.com