In this episode of PodBiz, Norma Jean Belenky and John Kiernan speak with Gordon Firemark, entertainment and media attorney known as The Podcast Lawyer™. Gordon shares how podcasters can protect their work, structure their businesses, and avoid the mistakes that cost creators time and money.

He explains why “fair use” isn’t a safety net, why every show needs clear contracts, and how creators can think strategically about the business side of podcasting.

As Gordon puts it:

• The top legal pitfalls podcasters overlook
• Why fair use doesn’t mean what most think
• How contracts protect co-hosts, guests, and editors
• When and why to form an LLC for your podcast
• Why ownership agreements matter for brands and collaborations
• The future of podcast discovery and YouTube’s legal implications

Guest Bio:

Gordon Firemark, The Podcast Lawyer™, is an entertainment and media lawyer, podcaster, and educator known as The Podcast Lawyer™. He helps creators and companies protect their IP, contracts, and business structures. Gordon is the author of The Podcast, Blog, and New Media Producer’s Legal Survival Guide and host of Entertainment Law Update and Legit Podcast Pro.

Connect with Gordon Firemark:

Website: https://gordonfiremark.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gordonfiremark

(00:30) The $1 Haircut Analogy

(01:05) Welcome to PodBiz

(02:19) Where’s the Money in Podcasting?

(03:03) From Theater to Media Law

(05:27) Why Podcasting Isn’t Radio

(08:25) Making Legal Education Accessible

(09:11) Templates, Courses, and the DIY Legal Toolkit

(10:12) The $1 Haircut Rule

(12:08) Treating Your Podcast as a Business

(14:22) Top Three Legal Mistakes Podcasters Make

(16:46) StoryBrand and Making the Client the Hero

(18:36) Quality Over Quantity

(18:52) The Future of Podcast Discovery

(21:14) Audio First, Video Smart

(22:10) Closing Takeaways

PodBiz is the podcast about the business of podcasting. Hosted by industry veterans Norma Jean Belenky and John Kiernan, the show features conversations with creators, executives, and platform leaders to answer one question: Where’s the money in podcasting?

Each episode dives into monetization strategy, adtech, branded content, IP development, and audience growth. Guests include leaders from Acast, Captivate, Crooked Media, Buzzsprout, True Native Media, Podfest, and more.

Learn more: njbmedia.co | thepodhouseproductions.com

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode of PodBiz, Norma Jean Belenky speaks with Stevie Manns, a producer with a background in both finance and media who currently works on the branded podcast The Bid for BlackRock. Stevie shares their journey of realizing a passion for podcast production and strategy during the pandemic and how they now apply their over a decade and a half of industry experience to help brands achieve significant return on investment and exposure.

As Stevie puts it:

• Why working for a brand remains one of the most reliable income paths in podcasting

• How branded podcasts drive ROI through brand lift, thought leadership, and audience trust

• What metrics actually matter, from subscriber growth to consumption rate

• Why a 75 percent completion rate is “really, really good” for a branded show

• How Stevie’s transition from finance to production led to purpose-driven work

• The importance of caring deeply about your subject matter, even in complex topics

• Why understanding your limitations and collaborating with experts builds stronger shows

• How creative brand storytelling is evolving and why now is the time for bold ideas

Stevie Manns (they/them) is a producer currently working with BlackRock on their podcast, The Bid. They have a long professional background in finance and a creative background in music and radio, which they combined to pivot into podcast production and strategy. Stevie also works on independent projects, including the Star Trek podcast Set Phasers.

Learn more about Stevie's work at http://steviemanns.com

(00:00) Where is the money in podcasting?

(01:01) The value and ROI of a branded podcast

(03:16) The halo effect and brand lift

(04:50) Podcasts as “top of funnel” thought leadership

(05:38) ROI as a function of content need, subscribers, and consumption rate

(06:49) Defining a high consumption rate for brands

(07:22) Stevie’s unconventional path into podcasting

(09:56) The existential COVID question and realizing a passion for production

(11:43) Combining finance experience with production passion

(12:01) Independent projects, including work with a Ukrainian journalist

(14:25) The key mindset: caring about the subject matter and telling a story

(15:38) What people may not know about the producer’s role

(17:49) Advice for creators: knowing your limitations and not trying to do it all

(19:14) Thoughts on regrets and the future career path

(20:52) Excitement for industry growth, new listeners, and brand creativity

(22:57) Examples of creative brand podcasting

PodBiz is the podcast about the business of podcasting. Hosted by industry veterans Norma Jean Belenky and John Kiernan, the show features conversations with creators, executives, and platform leaders to answer one question: Where’s the money in podcasting?

Each episode dives into monetization strategy, adtech, branded content, IP development, and audience growth. Guests include leaders from Acast, Captivate, Crooked Media, Buzzsprout, True Native Media, Podfest, and more.

Learn more: njbmedia.co | thepodhouseproductions.com

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Where's the best place to make money in podcasting in 2025?

In this episode of PodBiz, Norma Jean Belenky speaks with Dane Cardiel, Founder and Publisher of Good Tape, about the business, culture, and ethics of the podcasting industry. Dane shares his "two answers" to the question of where the money is, the crucial role of community, and his journey from being the first non-CTO employee at Simplecast to launching a physical print magazine dedicated to the craft of audio.

As he puts it: “Podcasting... really is one of the only mediums a talent can actually have ownership over and really control their voice, their distribution, their monetization, sort of the full stack that other mediums really don't have any access to.”

Here are some insightful moments within the episode:

• Where Dane Cardiel believes the money is in podcasting—with a hot take and a deep dive into community-building.

• The "Autonomous" and "Participatory" community quadrants where financial success is located.

• The ethics and responsibility of the podcast medium, which allows talent to control their voice, distribution, and monetization.

• Dane's journey from being the first non-CTO employee at Simplecast to a VP role in ad tech.

• The one key mistake Dane observed in ad sales: the widespread lack of audience surveys.

• Why Good Tape, a physical magazine, was created to elevate cultural coverage and shift the industry to be more active in the broader "creator economy."

Dane Cardiel is the Founder and Publisher of Good Tape, an independent print magazine and creative studio dedicated to the craft and culture of podcasting. He previously held leadership positions at several podcast companies, including serving as VP of Creator Partnerships at Gumball and being an early employee at Simplecast.

Connect with Dane on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danecardiel/

Check out Dane's write up, Cashing In On Podcast Communities: https://offtherecrd.substack.com/p/cashing-in-on-podcast-communities

Episode Chapters

00:00 – The tea is hot

01:07 – Welcome to Podbiz & Introducing Dane Cardiel

01:37 – Where is the money in podcasting?

02:18 – The second answer: Community

03:09 – Dane's community chart and quadrants

04:58 – Discussing Good Tape and Dane's advocacy

08:29 – Podcasting as a double-edged sword and medium ownership

11:07 – "We're going to grow old together" and shared values in the industry

16:40 – Dane's career trajectory: Simplecast

18:46 – Selling air: the enterprise side of Simplecast

21:51 – Transition to ad tech: Headgum and Gumball

23:38 – What podcast categories sell in ad tech

25:41 – The biggest learning in ad sales: the lack of audience surveys

30:42 – The Good Tape journey

35:12 – Key moves and mindset: producers and 'business-leaning' talent

37:00 – The difficulties in the industry (layoffs, competition)

39:03 – The future of audio-only and community

45:16 – If starting over, what Dane would do differently

45:36 – What Dane is most excited about: Creator Economy

Some Additional PodBiz Buzz…

“The ability to influence that ability to oscillate that that shared equilibrium of values like, to a center that I feel more comfortable with... that feels like it's within my control.”

“We have to be in this like new entertainment space and be a contributor to that conversation, not just a passive recipient of it.”

PodBiz is the podcast about the business of podcasting. Hosted by industry veterans Norma Jean Belenky and John Kiernan, the show features conversations with creators, executives, and platform leaders to answer one question: Where’s the money in podcasting?

Each episode dives into monetization strategy, adtech, branded content, IP development, and audience growth. Guests include leaders from Acast, Captivate, Crooked Media, Buzzsprout, True Native Media, Podfest, and more.

Learn more: njbmedia.co | thepodhouseproductions.com

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode of PodBiz, Norma Jean Belenky and John Kiernan talk with Randi P’Pool, Founder and CEO of P’Pool Media, about the realities of leading a modern media agency — from scaling teams and navigating client departures to redefining what creative success actually looks like. Randi shares lessons from two decades in broadcast and marketing and the shift from corporate structures to the agility of podcasting. It’s a candid look at leadership, adaptation, and what happens when you build a business that reflects the people behind it.

As she puts it:

• Why adaptability is the key to long-term success in podcast marketing

• How to recover when a major client leaves — and what it teaches you about leadership

• Why authenticity and consistency still outperform “corporate buzzword speak”

• The shift from broadcast culture to agile, creator-led podcasting

• How fractional teams and partnerships can scale creative businesses

• The emotional side of entrepreneurship and protecting your confidence

• What the future of podcast marketing looks like for agencies and creators alike

Randi P’Pool is the Founder and CEO of P’Pool Media, a full-service marketing agency working with B2B and B2C podcast companies. With over twenty years of experience in media, she helps creators, networks, and brands build marketing strategies that connect, convert, and sustain. Randi’s work bridges traditional broadcast expertise with the adaptability of today’s podcast industry, emphasizing creative integrity and measurable results.

Connect with Randi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/randi-p-pool-75872520/

(00:00) Opening | Defining the real business of podcast marketing

(02:14) From corporate broadcasting to entrepreneurship | Randi’s leap into ownership

(06:42) Strategy over spin | Finding the right message for the right audience

(09:22) Authenticity in content | Why “busy buzzword speak” doesn’t work

(10:02) Leadership lessons | Building and managing a business that scales

(17:53) Fractional teams | How integration keeps clients growing

(19:51) The never-off entrepreneur | Boundaries and balance in creative work

(20:43) Learning from loss | Navigating client departures with perspective

(23:13) The future of podcast marketing | Why evolution keeps it exciting

PodBiz is the podcast about the business of podcasting. Hosted by industry veterans Norma Jean Belenky and John Kiernan, the show features conversations with creators, executives, and platform leaders to answer one question: Where’s the money in podcasting?

Each episode dives into monetization strategy, adtech, branded content, IP development, and audience growth. Guests include leaders from Acast, Captivate, Crooked Media, Buzzsprout, True Native Media, Podfest, and more.

Learn more: njbmedia.co | thepodhouseproductions.com

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

How do you build a podcast that earns from every direction while keeping its creative core intact?

In this episode of PodBiz, Norma Jean Belenky speaks with Jack Levy, Creator, Producer, Director, Entrepreneur and Co-Founder & COO of Manifest Media Productions and creator of Table Read, the scripted series that brought Hollywood’s table-read tradition to podcasting. Jack shares how he turned creativity, collaboration, and business acumen into what he calls a “360 monetization” model that keeps storytelling at the center.

As he puts it:

• What 360 monetization really means for creators and producers

• How Table Read turned community and collaboration into revenue

• Why partnerships and product alignment can be more valuable than ads

• How fiction and storytelling remain untapped business opportunities

• The importance of patience, quality, and purpose in building a brand

• What Jack wishes every independent podcaster understood about growth

Jack Levy is the Co-Founder of Manifest Media Productions and the creator of Table Read, a scripted podcast that transforms Hollywood’s creative process into audio storytelling. With a background in film and production, Jack’s work bridges creative culture with sustainable business practices, helping creators turn great stories into profitable ventures.

Connect with Jack on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0506446/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacklevyanefx/

The Table Read Podcast Website: https://www.tablereadpodcast.com/

Listen to The Table Read Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/grg-the-pod/id1809713147?i=1000710066981

(00:00) Opening | Defining the 360-degree view of monetization

(02:19) Table Read | How the concept started and found its audience

(06:42) Building a business | Early partnerships and first wins

(10:33) Collaboration | Why aligned partners matter more than ad spend

(14:51) Storytelling and sustainability | Keeping creativity profitable

(19:03) Fiction podcasts | Why narrative formats are still wide open

(23:28) Audience growth | Building and maintaining a real community

(28:15) Easter eggs | What real monetization looks like in practice

(32:57) Lessons learned | Advice for new creators

(36:44) What’s next | The future of Table Read and Manifest Media

PodBiz is the podcast about the business of podcasting. Hosted by industry veterans Norma Jean Belenky and John Kiernan, the show features conversations with creators, executives, and platform leaders to answer one question: Where’s the money in podcasting?

Each episode dives into monetization strategy, adtech, branded content, IP development, and audience growth. Guests include leaders from Acast, Captivate, Crooked Media, Buzzsprout, True Native Media, Podfest, and more.

Learn more: njbmedia.co | thepodhouseproductions.com

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Can storytelling really be the most valuable skill in podcasting- and in business?

In this episode of PodBiz, Norma Jean Belenky speaks with Laura Joyce Davis, CEO of Narrative Podcasts and Managing Editor of the Stanford Storytelling Project, about the power of narrative podcasting. Laura shares how she went from launching Shelter in Place on the first day of lockdown to producing 200 episodes, founding a company, and now teaching podcasting at Stanford and Google.

As she puts it:

Here are some insightful moments within the episode:

• Why storytelling is the most valuable skill in podcasting
• How Shelter in Place became both a lifeline and a launchpad
• Why the revision process matters more than quick wins
• The importance of separating ‘creator brain’ from ‘marketer brain’
• Building an audience before launching a podcast
• How AI can serve as a creative companion, not a replacement

Laura Joyce Davis is the CEO of Narrative Podcasts and Managing Editor of the Stanford Storytelling Project. She created the award-winning Shelter in Place, has trained dozens of emerging podcasters, and now teaches storytelling at Stanford, Stanford Continuing Studies, and Google. She is also writing a forthcoming book on narrative podcasting.

Connect with Laura on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurajoycedavis/

Learn more at Narrative Podcasts: www.narrativepodcasts.com

00:00 – Storytelling as a vital skill

01:47 – Can you really make money in podcasting?

05:00 – How narrative podcasting builds life skills

07:28 – Shelter in Place: a pandemic project becomes a career

11:12 – Learning by doing: 200 episodes, zero training wheels

13:06 – Why revision is where the magic happens

17:52 – Building Narrative Podcasts to train new creators

22:12 – From burnout to Stanford

25:29 – The mindset shift that makes or breaks creators

29:08 – Creator brain vs. marketer brain

32:31 – The community power of podcasting

33:28 – If starting over, what Laura would do differently

37:31 – AI as a creative companion

PodBiz is the podcast about the business of podcasting. Hosted by industry veterans Norma Jean Belenky and John Kiernan, the show features conversations with creators, executives, and platform leaders to answer one question: Where’s the money in podcasting?

Each episode dives into monetization strategy, adtech, branded content, IP development, and audience growth. Guests include leaders from Acast, Captivate, Crooked Media, Buzzsprout, True Native Media, Podfest, and more.

Learn more: njbmedia.co | thepodhouseproductions.com

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode of PodBiz, Norma Jean Belenky speaks with Alice Florence Orr, Staff Writer and Managing Editor at Podcast Review and BBC Radio contributor, about the realities of podcast PR, pitching, and discoverability. Alice shares the common mistakes creators make when pitching their shows, how to think beyond “industry validation,” and why audio-only podcasts still have a unique space in the market.

As she puts it:

• Why “selling IP” isn’t the only way to make money in podcasting
• The pitfalls of podcast PR and what makes a pitch stand out
• How independent creators can leverage ads, subscriptions, and branded partnerships
• Why discoverability remains the industry’s biggest challenge
• The future of audio-only podcasts in a video-saturated market

Alice Florence Orr is the Managing Editor of Podcast Review and a BBC Radio contributor. Her work focuses on podcast criticism, media strategy, and discoverability, helping creators understand how to reach new audiences. She is also an active voice on LinkedIn, writing about podcasting, media, and culture.

🔗 Connect with Alice on LinkedIn

📖 Read her work on Podcast Review

00:52 – The Money Question | Where Alice sees revenue opportunities

01:44 – Independent Podcasting | Models beyond the big network buyout

04:21 – Reviewing Genres | Why niches and listening habits matter

07:25 – Finding Your Audience | Reverse-engineering discoverability

09:02 – Pitching Mistakes | What not to do in press releases

13:19 – What Reviewers Need | How to make your podcast pitch stand out

17:17 – Discoverability Challenges | Why apps alone won’t get you found

23:38 – Getting Into Podcasting | Alice’s career journey and BBC contributions

27:34 – Looking Ahead | Why audio still matters in a video-first world

PodBiz is the podcast about the business of podcasting. Hosted by industry veterans Norma Jean Belenky and John Kiernan, the show features conversations with creators, executives, and platform leaders to answer one question: Where’s the money in podcasting?

Each episode dives into monetization strategy, adtech, branded content, IP development, and audience growth. Guests include leaders from Acast, Captivate, Crooked Media, Buzzsprout, True Native Media, Podfest, and more.

Learn more: njbmedia.co | thepodhouseproductions.com

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode of PodBiz, recorded before his unexpected passing last week, Todd Cochran, Founder & CEO of Blubrry Podcasting, joined Norma Jean Belenky to share his perspective on the realities of monetization, the future of the industry, and why creators must first serve their audiences.

As James Cridland wrote in an obituary published in Podnews, “Todd Cochrane was a fierce proponent of open RSS and building your podcast on your own website… Ever willing to help progress the industry, Todd was always interested to learn and make friends with anyone in podcasting.” His words in this conversation are a reminder of just how much one person can shape an industry.

As he put it:

• Why podcasters should build community before chasing ads
• The download thresholds that really matter to advertisers (10K–50K)
• Subscription models and listener support as alternative revenue streams
• Why transparency and vulnerability create lasting trust
• How independent voices and audio-first strategies continue to shape the industry

Todd Cochran was the Founder & CEO of Blubrry Podcasting, a pioneer in hosting and monetization. A Navy veteran, author of one of the first books on podcasting, and longtime host of Geek News Central, Todd helped establish podcasting as a professional medium. His leadership empowered countless independent podcasters to find their voice, their audience, and their sustainability.

We’re deeply grateful to have recorded this conversation with Todd, and we honor his legacy in podcasting.

01:26 – Monetization Realities | Why most creators shouldn’t chase ads first

04:22 – The Numbers That Matter | When agencies start paying attention

07:32 – Beyond Ads | Subscriptions and listener support

10:16 – Building Trust | Transparency, vulnerability, and audience connection

13:46 – Early Days | Hosting, GoDaddy, and growing the ecosystem

19:11 – Hitting Record | Why starting is the hardest—and most important—step

24:27 – Practical Advice | “Record for your audience. Write for Google.”

32:39 – From Niche to Mainstream | The growth of podcasting at scale

36:16 – Future of Revenue | Ads, acquisitions, and industry shifts

37:14 – Why Audio-First Still Wins | Todd’s advice for new podcasters

PodBiz is the podcast about the business of podcasting. Hosted by industry veterans Norma Jean Belenky and John Kiernan, the show features conversations with creators, executives, and platform leaders to answer one question: Where’s the money in podcasting?

Each episode dives into monetization strategy, adtech, branded content, IP development, and audience growth. Guests include leaders from Acast, Captivate, Crooked Media, Buzzsprout, True Native Media, Podfest, and more.

Learn more: njbmedia.co | thepodhouseproductions.com

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.