This is a cross-over podcast episode from our Substack site MuniSquare. We hope you will enjoy and follow subscribe if you like what you see.

In this episode Nancy Hess and Mike Rowe from the University of Liverpool explore James C. Scott's groundbreaking book "Seeing Like a State" and its powerful implications for local government.

Discover how governments make society "legible" through mapping and regulation, why top-down planning often fails, and how everyday acts of resistance shape our communities. From Brasília's utopian architecture to contract farming's unintended consequences, this conversation reveals how Scott's insights help us understand everything from zoning disputes to the hidden knowledge that really keeps organizations running. Essential listening for anyone working in public administration, urban planning, or community development.

00:00 - 03:00 - Introduction and Context

Nancy introduces the episode structure and Scott's four key concepts; Mike explains discovering Scott's work at the intersection of public administration and anthropology

03:00 - 07:00 - Everyday Forms of Resistance

Explainer on hidden resistance in daily life; discussion of Indonesian flood management and animistic land practices

07:00 - 11:00 - From Job Descriptions to Legibility

Nancy's organizational development experience; Mike's story about the two women who "really ran" the university; introduction to legibility concept

11:00 - 16:00 - Legibility and Simplification

Explainer on cadastral mapping and forest management; immigration policy as example of complex simplification

16:00 - 20:00 - Planning and Local Knowledge

Discussion of urban sprawl, high-speed rail planning challenges, and Colin Ward's anarchist architecture

20:00 - 24:00 - Cadastral Mapping and Zoning

Historical context of land mapping for taxation; modern parallels in small business and cash economy

24:00 - 30:00 - High Modernism and Brasília

Explainer on Le Corbusier's influence; the story of Brasília's construction workers creating thriving informal settlements

30:00 - 36:00 - Agricultural Simplification

Contract farming as modern example; loss of generational farming knowledge; comparison to contracting out government services

36:00 - 42:00 - Local Government Applications

Lancaster County agriculture, mushroom farms vs. new developments, building on floodplains; practical advice for policy-making

42:00 - 43:00 - Conclusion

Reflections on Scott's political reception and continuing relevance

A few weeks ago, APMM concluded another successful conference in Lancaster Pennsylvania. This episode is a recording from one of the sessions and is part of the 2025 APMM series.

In this session, four past presidents of APMM open up about what it means to lead while legacy still shapes the norms. With humor, honesty, and insight, they share lessons on mentorship, advocacy, fitting in (or not), and what happens when you finally stop shrinking to fit.

This episode offers inspiration and strategy for anyone navigating leadership, from seasoned professionals to those just beginning the climb.

Guest Introductions:

Joining us for this episode are four respected leaders in Pennsylvania municipal management:

Amanda Serock is manager of Concord Township, Delaware County, Pennsylvania. She teaches at Villa Nova University, from where she received her MPA and began her career in local government in 2005. She is an advocate for leaders coming up in the field.

Stephanie Teoli Kuhls has worked in municipal government for over 34 years, most recently serving as Township Manager in Middletown Township, Bucks County. She began her career in 1991, received her MPA from PennStaate and now teaches at Villanova University, where she continues her passion for mentoring emerging leaders in the field.

Amy Farkas is the Township Manager of Patton Township in Centre County and previously served for 17 years in Harris Township. She began her career in local government in 1997, received her MPA from Penn State and has been an active member of APMM since 2005.

Stephanie Mason is the longtime Township Manager of Doylestown Township in Bucks County, where she has served for 38 years, including 25 as manager. She received her MPA from University of Pittsburth and served as APMM's president in 2011 and 2012, she also represented the region on the ICMA Executive Board.

00:00–02:00 | Framing the Conversation

02:00–04:00 | Breaking Into APMM Leadership

04:00–07:00 | What It’s Really Like to Be APMM President

07:00–09:30 | Reform from Within

09:30–12:00 | Professional Advocacy in a Biased System

12:00–15:00 | The Invisible Problems

15:00–17:30 | Claiming Space and Leading with Confidence

17:30–20:00 | How to Get Involved (Even if You're Not Ready for a Committee)

20:00–23:00 | Mentoring and Pushing Others to Lead

23:00–26:00 | Don’t Make Yourself Small

In this powerful session from the APMM annual conference, three former Pennsylvania municipal managers—now working in other states—return to reflect on the structural and political challenges facing the profession in Pennsylvania. They explore what’s holding the profession back, including outdated laws, weak employment protections, fractured local governance, and lack of advocacy. Together with facilitator Dave Kratzer and the audience, they tackle tough questions: Can a manager be both neutral and political? What’s the real role of local government today? And who’s protecting the managers doing the work?

This candid, collegial, and at times gritty conversation is a wake-up call to local leaders—and a call to action for the next generation.

This is part of the 2025 APMM Series. Follow this podcast on your player to catch the next episode!

Quotes:

  📍 A question that needs to be asked across the Commonwealth is, at its core, what is the role of local government? Almost all of us would probably agree. It's not really just to. Pave roads plow and, help take care of trash. As Dave said, the government of a right.

What do our constituents expect of us? These municipal codes that say what we can and can't do are oftentimes tying our hands, so I think there needs to be a conversation about what is the future of municipal government and how can laws be modified. - Eden Ratliff

  📍 We just had a general session on ethics, and there were some really good hypotheticals that were introduced.

And I think we as a cohort can generally agree on the responses to some of those hypotheticals. But I'll tell you, as somebody speaking from personal experience when you're in them, it's a different ballgame. It's much more difficult to stick to the script and answer that way. - Dave Pribulka

  📍 The problem in Pennsylvania is unlike all of the other employee groups, we don't really have anyone representing us. If we think it's PML, you're kidding yourself.

That's not a knock on PML. But if you think about who they represent the elected officials. They don't represent the managers. When the two align, they'll certainly back up. Just understand who they are really working for and who pays their bills. - Matt Candland

  📍 If I had a magic wand, and I'm gonna, I'm just here offend all of you one way or another, but one of the change what I think would be one of the best ways to help the management profession in Pennsylvania is consolidation. - Matt Candland

  📍 I think the reality is if you can manage here in Pennsylvania, you can manage anywhere. This is a state where the manager is a Jack or Jane of all trades and a master of none. You get so much exposure to the direct work we do as local government officials that when you go to a community out of state where that might be delegated or you have a staff that can handle that you can speak with exactitude about how you approached, the situation. - Dave Pribulka

  📍 It's really hard to do big things in the Commonwealth. But a bunch of little things do lead to big things. And all of you are doing that in your communities. - Eden Ratliff

APMM - Association for Pennsylvania Municipal Management

David Kratzer, Session Facilitator

Dave Pribulka, Guest

Eden Ratliff,...

Today we have a special first episode of our 2025 APMM series with guests Dan Santoro, Incoming President of APMM and Sara Gibson, Conference Chair.

We are going to chat about the upcoming APMM conference in Lancaster, Pennsylvania – Monday, May 19th – Wednesday May 21st. This year’s theme is Find Your Spark and it is chock full of sessions and opportunities to connect.

APMM is the Association in Pennsylvania to network and learn with other municipal managers and this year they will be joined by managers from Delaware!

So check out the links to the APMM conference page and listen in to find out how to get your Spark in Lancaster with APMM!

For more information on the conference: https://www.apmm.net/annual-conference-information.

Host: of PCC Local Time - Nancy J.Hess

Dan Santoro, Township Manager, Cranberry Township, PA

Sara Gibson, Borough Manager, Camp Hill, PA

In this episode of our APMM series, we dive into the evolving world of local government leadership. I'm thrilled to be joined by three distinguished guests: Tom Fountaine, George Needles, and Dave Kratzer. Together, they bring decades of experience and deep insight into the challenges and opportunities shaping municipal management today.

In our conversation, we cover:

• The growing complexity of public expectations and the rise of instant communication in the digital age.

• Navigating governance challenges, from polarization to the need for greater professionalization in local government.

• The competition for talent and what it means for the future of the profession.

• And finally the need to Advocate for statutory protections and employment agreements to ensure stability and address leadership volatility.

Whether you’re a municipal manager, elected official, or someone curious about the dynamics of local governance, this episode offers valuable insights on leadership, adaptability, and the profession’s future.

APMM Website (Upcoming Executive Conference Info)

APMM LinkedIN

**

Tom Fountaine

David Kratzer Jr

George Needles

Duration of Employment Agreements (Starting: [00:00:00])

• "The limitation in the statute that doesn't allow local municipalities to make their own decisions about that issue is not a good statute...those decisions should be made by local governing bodies." - Tom

Increased Interaction with Elected Officials (Starting: [00:03:00])

• "I probably spend more time today working directly with elected officials, communicating with elected officials, attending meetings with elected officials...than I did when I started in this career." - Tom

Impact of Polarization and Social Media (Starting: [00:04:00])

• "The polarization of the world has really made this work much different than it used to be 20 or 30 years ago." - Tom

Evolving Public Expectations (Starting: [00:07:00])

• "People consume communication so many different ways now that there is an expectation that we can deliver in their way that they can consume and we can deliver that very quickly." - George

Faster Information Flow (Starting: [00:09:00])

• "With quicker access to information...it puts more importance on making sure that those charged with governance, the elected officials, are aware of that information before it becomes generally available." - Dave

The Competition for Talent (Starting: [00:12:00])

• "Competition for talent...is not only a function of competition within the sector but also other opportunities that may present for those that have functioned well in this position." - Dave

Standardization Challenges in Pennsylvania Governance (Starting: [00:16:00])

• "We operate under codes, right? But we're not highly standardized...No two [local governments] are similar." - George

Governance Fragmentation and Managerial...

Today we explore how adaptive thinking, emotional intelligence, and innovative frameworks like the OODA loop and Cynefin transform problem-solving are impacting policing. Lou Hayes Jr., a detective sergeant, and complexity facilitator Gary Wong share insights on navigating uncertainty, fostering trust, and rethinking traditional approaches to leadership. Perfect for leaders, law enforcement professionals, and anyone tackling complex challenges.

Nancy Hess, Host of PCC Local Time

Lou Hayes , Jr. (LinkedIn)

• The Illinois Model

Gary Wong (LinkedIn)

• Welcome to My Brain

IDEAS/ RESOURCES MENTIONS IN SHOW:

John Boyds OODA Loop

 Dr. Gary Klein's work on recognition, prime decision making

A Leader’s Framework for Decisionmaking (HBR Article co-authored by Dave Snowden)

[00:09:00] Adaptive Thinking in Policing

Lou emphasizes the need for adaptive thinking in policing, focusing on reframing problems, understanding complex dynamics, and utilizing frameworks like the OODA loop to navigate evolving situations.

Quotes:

• Lou: "In policing, you rarely encounter situations that fit into neat, predefined boxes. You need tools and frameworks that adapt in real-time to the chaos around you."
• Gary: "The transition from seeing things as 'either-or' to 'both-and' opens up creative, novel solutions that weren't initially apparent."

[00:18:00]The Role of Storytelling and Emotional Intelligence

Storytelling and emotional intelligence are highlighted as critical tools for decision-making, team building, and understanding diverse perspectives in policing.

Quotes:

• Lou: "Storytelling builds a bank of experiences we can draw from, helping us navigate new and complex situations with confidence."
• Gary: "Emotional intelligence isn't just about managing emotions but also about fostering environments where diverse perspectives come together effectively."

[00:33:00]The Intersection of Policy and Complexity

Lou and Gary discuss the limitations of rigid, policy-driven approaches in addressing complex policing scenarios. They advocate for more flexible policies that acknowledge and adapt to complexity.

Quotes:

• Lou: "Policies need to balance structure with flexibility, allowing officers to navigate both ordered and chaotic situations effectively."
• Gary: "The challenge isn't micromanagement; it's misapplied micromanagement in contexts where creativity and flexibility are required."

In this episode, I sit down with Yaron Prywes, a coaching psychologist, executive coach, and educator whose career has been dedicated to helping leaders and teams reach their full potential. We explore the transformative power of coaching—how it builds trust, unlocks self-awareness, and helps leaders navigate challenges in both public and private sectors. From resolving conflicts to fostering accountability, Yaron shares practical tools and stories that illustrate the impact of coaching. Whether you're a leader or a team member, this conversation offers valuable insights into how coaching can create meaningful change.

Yaron Prywes is a coaching psychologist, executive coach, and educator known for his innovative, visual approach to coaching. His work on visual action plans has been published in The Philosophy of Coaching: An International Journal, and he is currently authoring The Visual Coaching Handbook, which features a collection of creative, field-tested techniques. Yaron has led research on the outcomes of coaching and leadership development initiatives and previously taught Executive Coaching at Columbia University, where he supervised new coaches as they worked with live clients for the first time.

LINKEDIN

[00:00:00] Introduction and Background

• Nancy introduces Yaron, sharing the story of how they met and his dedication to coaching.

[00:03:21] Yaron’s First Experience with Coaching

• Yaron recounts his first encounter with a career coach and how it set him on his path to coaching.

[00:04:53] Sports Coaching and Workplace Coaching

• The parallels between sports coaching and executive coaching, focusing on performance adjustments.

[00:06:50] Whole-Person Coaching

• Yaron explains the importance of seeing clients as whole individuals and how personal and professional challenges intersect.

[00:08:37] Common Scenarios for Coaching in Organizations

• Typical contexts in which coaching is introduced, particularly in public sector organizations.

[00:09:24] Case Study: Hard-Charging Leader

• A story about coaching a CFO with black-and-white thinking and the importance of diplomacy.

[00:12:40] Team Workshops Using the NBI Tool

• Yaron describes the Neethling Brain Instrument (NBI) and how it helps teams understand communication styles.

[00:17:54] 360-Degree Feedback for Leaders

• The value of 360 feedback in developing leaders and creating self-awareness.

[00:22:40] Building Agency and Accountability in Teams

• Coaching to empower teams to take ownership of challenges and build accountability.

[00:29:33] Dealing with Workplace Conflict

• A case study on resolving conflict in a utilities department through coaching and team-building exercises.

[00:32:55] Transformative Conversations and Trust

• How sharing personal highs and lows can transform team dynamics and build trust.

[00:36:44] Leadership’s Role in Creating Safe Spaces

• The importance of leaders creating safe environments to surface and address issues before they escalate.

[00:39:32] The Structure of a Coaching Engagement

• Yaron outlines the typical phases of coaching: discovery, planning, and execution.

[00:42:19] Coaching as a Hero’s...

Larry Comunale is a seasoned municipal manager whose career has spanned decades of challenges, growth, and impact. In this episode, Larry reflects on his journey from rigid labor negotiations to fostering trust-based relationships and community cohesion. He shares invaluable insights into navigating relationships with elected officials, building transparent budgeting processes, and addressing the evolving needs of diverse communities. From his practical strategies for productive conversations to his reflections on the role of community in public health, Larry's stories are both inspiring and thought-provoking. Join us as we explore the enduring lessons of leadership in local government through Larry’s eyes.

Learn more about Larry's career from the Villanova University website HERE [Excerpt below]

Larry Comunale completed a 42-year career in municipal management in 2016 when he retired as the Township Manager of Lower Gwynedd Township in April of 2016. During his career, he was the manager in three municipalities: East Stroudsburg Borough; Newtown Township (Delaware County); and Lower Gwynedd Township. Larry has been an Adjunct Faculty member in Villanova’s MPA Program since 2004 and is also an Adjunct Faculty member at Delaware Valley University in the Master of Public Policy (MPP) Program. He has served as Executive Director of the Montgomery County Association of Township Officials (MCATO). Larry is a past President of the Pennsylvania Municipal Managers Association and received the President’s Leadership Award from the Pennsylvania State Association of Township Supervisors (PSATS) in 2006. He has a Bachelor’s degree in Political Science and a Master’s of Public Administration degree from Penn State University.

Connect with Association for Pennsylvania Municpal Management on LinkedIn

[00:00:00] Introduction to Larry Comunale and His Career

• Overview of Larry's career, his leadership roles, and his approach to municipal management.

[00:01:10] Early Career Challenges in Municipal Management

• Larry discusses transitioning from an engineer-focused management style to a generalist approach that emphasized human relations and labor relations.

[00:05:00] Evolving Perspectives on Labor Relations

• Larry reflects on his confrontational approach to union negotiations early in his career and how he shifted toward a more conciliatory and trust-based strategy.

[00:10:44] Transparency and Accessibility in Budgeting

• Larry emphasizes the importance of creating understandable budgets and using them as tools for community engagement.

[00:15:30] Navigating Relationships with Elected Officials

• Insights on maintaining open communication while setting boundaries between board members and municipal staff.

[00:22:00] Recruitment and Retention Challenges in Local Government

• Discussion on the shrinking pool of qualified candidates and the complexities of relocating for municipal roles.

[00:30:00] Community Cohesion and the Manager’s...