Today we have a special first episode of our 2025 APMM series with guests Dan Santoro, Incoming President of APMM and Sara Gibson, Conference Chair.

We are going to chat about the upcoming APMM conference in Lancaster, Pennsylvania – Monday, May 19th – Wednesday May 21st. This year’s theme is Find Your Spark and it is chock full of sessions and opportunities to connect.

APMM is the Association in Pennsylvania to network and learn with other municipal managers and this year they will be joined by managers from Delaware!

So check out the links to the APMM conference page and listen in to find out how to get your Spark in Lancaster with APMM!

For more information on the conference: https://www.apmm.net/annual-conference-information.

Host: of PCC Local Time - Nancy J.Hess

Dan Santoro, Township Manager, Cranberry Township, PA

Sara Gibson, Borough Manager, Camp Hill, PA

In this episode of our APMM series, we dive into the evolving world of local government leadership. I'm thrilled to be joined by three distinguished guests: Tom Fountaine, George Needles, and Dave Kratzer. Together, they bring decades of experience and deep insight into the challenges and opportunities shaping municipal management today.

In our conversation, we cover:

• The growing complexity of public expectations and the rise of instant communication in the digital age.

• Navigating governance challenges, from polarization to the need for greater professionalization in local government.

• The competition for talent and what it means for the future of the profession.

• And finally the need to Advocate for statutory protections and employment agreements to ensure stability and address leadership volatility.

Whether you’re a municipal manager, elected official, or someone curious about the dynamics of local governance, this episode offers valuable insights on leadership, adaptability, and the profession’s future.

APMM Website (Upcoming Executive Conference Info)

APMM LinkedIN

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Tom Fountaine

David Kratzer Jr

George Needles

Duration of Employment Agreements (Starting: [00:00:00])

• "The limitation in the statute that doesn't allow local municipalities to make their own decisions about that issue is not a good statute...those decisions should be made by local governing bodies." - Tom

Increased Interaction with Elected Officials (Starting: [00:03:00])

• "I probably spend more time today working directly with elected officials, communicating with elected officials, attending meetings with elected officials...than I did when I started in this career." - Tom

Impact of Polarization and Social Media (Starting: [00:04:00])

• "The polarization of the world has really made this work much different than it used to be 20 or 30 years ago." - Tom

Evolving Public Expectations (Starting: [00:07:00])

• "People consume communication so many different ways now that there is an expectation that we can deliver in their way that they can consume and we can deliver that very quickly." - George

Faster Information Flow (Starting: [00:09:00])

• "With quicker access to information...it puts more importance on making sure that those charged with governance, the elected officials, are aware of that information before it becomes generally available." - Dave

The Competition for Talent (Starting: [00:12:00])

• "Competition for talent...is not only a function of competition within the sector but also other opportunities that may present for those that have functioned well in this position." - Dave

Standardization Challenges in Pennsylvania Governance (Starting: [00:16:00])

• "We operate under codes, right? But we're not highly standardized...No two [local governments] are similar." - George

Governance Fragmentation and Managerial...

Today we explore how adaptive thinking, emotional intelligence, and innovative frameworks like the OODA loop and Cynefin transform problem-solving are impacting policing. Lou Hayes Jr., a detective sergeant, and complexity facilitator Gary Wong share insights on navigating uncertainty, fostering trust, and rethinking traditional approaches to leadership. Perfect for leaders, law enforcement professionals, and anyone tackling complex challenges.

Nancy Hess, Host of PCC Local Time

Lou Hayes , Jr. (LinkedIn)

• The Illinois Model

Gary Wong (LinkedIn)

• Welcome to My Brain

IDEAS/ RESOURCES MENTIONS IN SHOW:

John Boyds OODA Loop

 Dr. Gary Klein's work on recognition, prime decision making

A Leader’s Framework for Decisionmaking (HBR Article co-authored by Dave Snowden)

[00:09:00] Adaptive Thinking in Policing

Lou emphasizes the need for adaptive thinking in policing, focusing on reframing problems, understanding complex dynamics, and utilizing frameworks like the OODA loop to navigate evolving situations.

Quotes:

• Lou: "In policing, you rarely encounter situations that fit into neat, predefined boxes. You need tools and frameworks that adapt in real-time to the chaos around you."
• Gary: "The transition from seeing things as 'either-or' to 'both-and' opens up creative, novel solutions that weren't initially apparent."

[00:18:00]The Role of Storytelling and Emotional Intelligence

Storytelling and emotional intelligence are highlighted as critical tools for decision-making, team building, and understanding diverse perspectives in policing.

Quotes:

• Lou: "Storytelling builds a bank of experiences we can draw from, helping us navigate new and complex situations with confidence."
• Gary: "Emotional intelligence isn't just about managing emotions but also about fostering environments where diverse perspectives come together effectively."

[00:33:00]The Intersection of Policy and Complexity

Lou and Gary discuss the limitations of rigid, policy-driven approaches in addressing complex policing scenarios. They advocate for more flexible policies that acknowledge and adapt to complexity.

Quotes:

• Lou: "Policies need to balance structure with flexibility, allowing officers to navigate both ordered and chaotic situations effectively."
• Gary: "The challenge isn't micromanagement; it's misapplied micromanagement in contexts where creativity and flexibility are required."