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In this episode Nancy Hess and Mike Rowe from the University of Liverpool explore James C. Scott's groundbreaking book "Seeing Like a State" and its powerful implications for local government.

Discover how governments make society "legible" through mapping and regulation, why top-down planning often fails, and how everyday acts of resistance shape our communities. From Brasília's utopian architecture to contract farming's unintended consequences, this conversation reveals how Scott's insights help us understand everything from zoning disputes to the hidden knowledge that really keeps organizations running. Essential listening for anyone working in public administration, urban planning, or community development.

00:00 - 03:00 - Introduction and Context

Nancy introduces the episode structure and Scott's four key concepts; Mike explains discovering Scott's work at the intersection of public administration and anthropology

03:00 - 07:00 - Everyday Forms of Resistance

Explainer on hidden resistance in daily life; discussion of Indonesian flood management and animistic land practices

07:00 - 11:00 - From Job Descriptions to Legibility

Nancy's organizational development experience; Mike's story about the two women who "really ran" the university; introduction to legibility concept

11:00 - 16:00 - Legibility and Simplification

Explainer on cadastral mapping and forest management; immigration policy as example of complex simplification

16:00 - 20:00 - Planning and Local Knowledge

Discussion of urban sprawl, high-speed rail planning challenges, and Colin Ward's anarchist architecture

20:00 - 24:00 - Cadastral Mapping and Zoning

Historical context of land mapping for taxation; modern parallels in small business and cash economy

24:00 - 30:00 - High Modernism and Brasília

Explainer on Le Corbusier's influence; the story of Brasília's construction workers creating thriving informal settlements

30:00 - 36:00 - Agricultural Simplification

Contract farming as modern example; loss of generational farming knowledge; comparison to contracting out government services

36:00 - 42:00 - Local Government Applications

Lancaster County agriculture, mushroom farms vs. new developments, building on floodplains; practical advice for policy-making

42:00 - 43:00 - Conclusion

Reflections on Scott's political reception and continuing relevance

A few weeks ago, APMM concluded another successful conference in Lancaster Pennsylvania. This episode is a recording from one of the sessions and is part of the 2025 APMM series.

In this session, four past presidents of APMM open up about what it means to lead while legacy still shapes the norms. With humor, honesty, and insight, they share lessons on mentorship, advocacy, fitting in (or not), and what happens when you finally stop shrinking to fit.

This episode offers inspiration and strategy for anyone navigating leadership, from seasoned professionals to those just beginning the climb.

Guest Introductions:

Joining us for this episode are four respected leaders in Pennsylvania municipal management:

Amanda Serock is manager of Concord Township, Delaware County, Pennsylvania. She teaches at Villa Nova University, from where she received her MPA and began her career in local government in 2005. She is an advocate for leaders coming up in the field.

Stephanie Teoli Kuhls has worked in municipal government for over 34 years, most recently serving as Township Manager in Middletown Township, Bucks County. She began her career in 1991, received her MPA from PennStaate and now teaches at Villanova University, where she continues her passion for mentoring emerging leaders in the field.

Amy Farkas is the Township Manager of Patton Township in Centre County and previously served for 17 years in Harris Township. She began her career in local government in 1997, received her MPA from Penn State and has been an active member of APMM since 2005.

Stephanie Mason is the longtime Township Manager of Doylestown Township in Bucks County, where she has served for 38 years, including 25 as manager. She received her MPA from University of Pittsburth and served as APMM's president in 2011 and 2012, she also represented the region on the ICMA Executive Board.

00:00–02:00 | Framing the Conversation

02:00–04:00 | Breaking Into APMM Leadership

04:00–07:00 | What It’s Really Like to Be APMM President

07:00–09:30 | Reform from Within

09:30–12:00 | Professional Advocacy in a Biased System

12:00–15:00 | The Invisible Problems

15:00–17:30 | Claiming Space and Leading with Confidence

17:30–20:00 | How to Get Involved (Even if You're Not Ready for a Committee)

20:00–23:00 | Mentoring and Pushing Others to Lead

23:00–26:00 | Don’t Make Yourself Small

In this powerful session from the APMM annual conference, three former Pennsylvania municipal managers—now working in other states—return to reflect on the structural and political challenges facing the profession in Pennsylvania. They explore what’s holding the profession back, including outdated laws, weak employment protections, fractured local governance, and lack of advocacy. Together with facilitator Dave Kratzer and the audience, they tackle tough questions: Can a manager be both neutral and political? What’s the real role of local government today? And who’s protecting the managers doing the work?

This candid, collegial, and at times gritty conversation is a wake-up call to local leaders—and a call to action for the next generation.

This is part of the 2025 APMM Series. Follow this podcast on your player to catch the next episode!

Quotes:

  📍 A question that needs to be asked across the Commonwealth is, at its core, what is the role of local government? Almost all of us would probably agree. It's not really just to. Pave roads plow and, help take care of trash. As Dave said, the government of a right.

What do our constituents expect of us? These municipal codes that say what we can and can't do are oftentimes tying our hands, so I think there needs to be a conversation about what is the future of municipal government and how can laws be modified. - Eden Ratliff

  📍 We just had a general session on ethics, and there were some really good hypotheticals that were introduced.

And I think we as a cohort can generally agree on the responses to some of those hypotheticals. But I'll tell you, as somebody speaking from personal experience when you're in them, it's a different ballgame. It's much more difficult to stick to the script and answer that way. - Dave Pribulka

  📍 The problem in Pennsylvania is unlike all of the other employee groups, we don't really have anyone representing us. If we think it's PML, you're kidding yourself.

That's not a knock on PML. But if you think about who they represent the elected officials. They don't represent the managers. When the two align, they'll certainly back up. Just understand who they are really working for and who pays their bills. - Matt Candland

  📍 If I had a magic wand, and I'm gonna, I'm just here offend all of you one way or another, but one of the change what I think would be one of the best ways to help the management profession in Pennsylvania is consolidation. - Matt Candland

  📍 I think the reality is if you can manage here in Pennsylvania, you can manage anywhere. This is a state where the manager is a Jack or Jane of all trades and a master of none. You get so much exposure to the direct work we do as local government officials that when you go to a community out of state where that might be delegated or you have a staff that can handle that you can speak with exactitude about how you approached, the situation. - Dave Pribulka

  📍 It's really hard to do big things in the Commonwealth. But a bunch of little things do lead to big things. And all of you are doing that in your communities. - Eden Ratliff

APMM - Association for Pennsylvania Municipal Management

David Kratzer, Session Facilitator

Dave Pribulka, Guest

Eden Ratliff,...