On the podcast today, David and Nathan are back with the second episode in their new series, where they break down the key components that make up a website. Today, they’re talking about website navigation, and asking the surprisingly sticky question: why is it so bloody awful?

David has done a deep dive into the ins and outs of navigation, putting together an exhaustive list of all the pieces involved. Nathan admits he used to take a much simpler approach, just add the top-level links and hope Google did the rest, but David’s research proves there’s a lot more going on beneath the surface.

They start by exploring the shifting meaning of terms like “menu,” “navigation,” and “nav,” both from a developer and a user’s perspective. Is it a noun? Is it a verb? Is it a technical role? As they discovered, even big names in UX like the Nielsen Norman Group can’t seem to agree.

From there, they walk through the many different types of website navigation: main links, hamburger menus, even on desktop, breadcrumbs, dropdowns (on hover or click), mega menus, and more. And it’s not just the styles that are confusing, there’s a tangle of terminology too, with “dropdowns,” “flyouts,” and “pull downs” meaning different things to different people.

David and Nathan share their frustrations with modern navigation: hidden menu items, ambiguous links, and the accessibility pitfalls of complicated dropdowns. They talk about why menus can be especially tricky on mobile, and how easy it is for even pros to get lost in their own site’s nav. David explains his approach of keeping things simple, stopping at HTML and CSS wherever possible, and only grudgingly adding JavaScript when absolutely needed.

They then explore the design, SEO, and accessibility issues that come with modern navigation patterns: from accidentally hiding important links from both users and Google, to building mega menus that are impossible to navigate by keyboard, to the sheer overwhelm of too many choices.

The conversation is packed with real-world frustrations, rants about hover-based menus, and practical tips on creating accessible, user-friendly website navigation. If you’ve ever been baffled by your own website’s menu, or just want to build smarter, simpler navigation that works for everyone, this episode is for you.

On the podcast today we have the usual suspects - Nathan Wrigley and David Waumsley.

This is the first in a new series where Nathan and David take a deep dive into different website components - today’s focus is on accordions. You know the ones: those hide-and-show sections you often see on FAQ pages, product details, or anywhere there’s a need to tidy up lots of information into collapsible panels. But what makes an accordion actually a good solution for your site, and when does it start to get in the way?

Nathan and David kick things off by defining what an accordion is (with a nod to the UX authorities and the W3C) - and clarifying, with a bit of humour, what does and does not count as an accordion out in the wild. They look at the types of accordions - exclusive, non-exclusive, and toggle - and discuss how these patterns got established in web design.

They also reflect on their own use (and sometimes overuse) of accordions in client work, especially handy within page builders, and how their thinking has changed as the web’s evolved.

Then it’s onto the technical side: the code needed. David explains why, until recently, JavaScript was essential for accessible accordions, but now, thanks to advances in HTML (details and summary elements), CSS (with exciting new features like interpolate size), and improved browser support, you can build robust accordions without a single line of JavaScript - plus some important gotchas and accessibility considerations to watch for.

They round things off by discussing when accordions add value - helping reduce overwhelm and improve scanability (is that a word?!) - and when they can cause problems, like increasing "interaction cost," fragmenting information, or raising accessibility and SEO concerns. There are design details to consider, as well as practical recommendations for ensuring your accordions are friendly for both users and search engines.

And if you want to see these concepts put into practice, the episode is paired with a follow-up video where David and Nathan demonstrate real code snippets and examples at noscript.show/learn/12.

If you’ve ever wondered whether you’re using accordions for the right reasons, how to build them the modern way, or want a clearer picture of their pros and cons - you won’t want to miss this episode.

Timestamps:

00:00 Accordion Design and Definition

06:22 FAQ Page Building Approach

07:52 HTML-Only Accordions Evolve

12:04 "Content Organization: Pros and Cons"

13:47 Logitech Product Page Analysis

16:56 "Accordion Utility in CMS Design"

22:02 Browser Styling Challenges and Limitations

24:49 Schema Markup for FAQs

27:43 "Purpose of Hiding FAQ Content"

29:56 "New Development Wrap-Up"

On the podcast today David Waumsley and Nathan Wrigley discuss some of the things that they've done well, and not so well over their 20 years as web site builders.

David kicks off by reflecting on some common missteps: not fully understanding the nature of the web, getting distracted by new tools and dependencies, and forgetting the basic tenets of good markup and accessibility.

He and Nathan talk about the importance of simple, semantic HTML first, focusing on communication before aesthetics, and the recurring struggle with over-complicating even the most basic sites.

From there, they examine why recurring revenue is essential for freelancers, how face-to-face and honest communication with clients can be a superpower, and why being agile, building projects around the client rather than forcing the client into a predefined 'system', can be transformational.

The episode is full of candid admissions and practical insights: David talks about his ongoing battle to minimise dependencies and keep his projects hand-off ready, the value of welcoming all kinds of clients/projects (even friends and family), and why he’s moved away from selling websites as self-contained 'products' towards offering them as ongoing, collaborative communication tools.

Finally, Nathan and David lay out their plan for the future of the show: a practical series focused on building up a library of reusable website 'components', demonstrating not just how to write cleaner code, but how to think about user experience, accessibility, and long-term maintainability.

If you want to become a better freelance web designer, or just want to hear what two experienced freelancers wish they’d done differently, this episode is for you.

Timestamps:

00:00 Revisiting Web Design Fundamentals

03:50 "Web Evolution and Future Trends"

09:37 From HTML Learner to WordPress Builder

10:23 Tech Complexity: Unnecessary Dependencies

16:22 Balancing Solo Work and Agility

19:24 Website Maintenance Challenges

23:13 Early Web Development Business Growth

26:10 Human Connection as Future Asset

30:22 Misconceptions in Page Builder Circles

33:23 "The Value of Being a Generalist"

35:57 Prioritizing Content and Efficiency

37:34 Streamlined Approach to Optimization

On the podcast today Nathan and David explore changes in the world of web technology, with a particular focus on CSS and front-end development.

They’re taking a step back to look at where CSS is heading, and in particular, how the rise of “programmatic CSS” is shifting the landscape for developers, designers, and anyone building for the web.

If you feel overwhelmed by the sheer volume of new CSS specifications, features, and ideas, things like inline if statements, new functions, and increasingly dynamic capabilities, then you’re not alone.

David shares his experience coming from a more traditional, declarative CSS background, and how the influx of new, more “programming-like” CSS features can make even the most confident among us feel lost at sea.

Nathan and David begin by reflecting on their own experiences learning programming, and how the evolution of CSS is blurring the lines between a simple presentational language and a more robust toolset for web design. They talk about what actually constitutes a programming language, how the nature of CSS is changing, and why this matters for anyone used to building sites with page builders or more traditional CSS workflows.

As the episode unfolds, they discuss the impact of these new CSS capabilities on everything from browser support to page builder UIs, to the continued importance of clear communication and content-first design.

Along the way, they touch on topics like CSS generators, the roles of standards bodies like the W3C, and the practical realities of adopting new CSS features at different skill levels.

Towards the end of the episode, they look at how these changes might shape the job market for front-end developers and designers, and what it will mean for agencies, clients, and those teaching themselves how to build for the web.

If you’ve been hearing about “programmatic CSS,” feeling bewildered by the speed of change, or just want to get a sense of where things are heading and what skills might be important for the web’s next chapter, this episode is for you.

On the podcast today, we have Paul Lacey, an experienced UK designer deeply entrenched in the world of WordPress. With years of experience working with agencies and clients, Paul will help us tackle the question: should we be offering clients a Content Management System (CMS)?

Paul brings a wealth of knowledge, having transitioned from a small agency owner to a freelance web consultant. He focuses on building websites and consulting, steering clear of marketing but fully embracing the technological side. We delve into the challenges and decisions surrounding the use of CMSs like WordPress, how they have influenced the design process over the years, and whether or not they are necessary for clients.

We discuss the practical aspects of offering a CMS: managing content, user permissions, and dealing with the demands and constraints that often come with these systems. Paul shares his experiences navigating these waters, working with both direct clients and agencies, and his thoughts on where the industry might be headed.

If you've ever grappled with the decision of whether to integrate a CMS into your workflow or simply offer bespoke solutions to your clients, this episode will provide you insight and perspective on the evolving landscape of web design and development.

On the podcast today, Nathan and David are exploring the fascinating world of the Indie Web, which presents itself as a people-focused alternative to the corporate-controlled web. This episode delves into what the Indie Web movement is all about, and why it might be the right choice for those concerned with the current state of internet ownership and privacy.

Nathan talks about how the Indie Web prioritises individual ownership of content and domain usage as a primary online identity. David gets into how owning your online presence can be more aligned with a people-first approach.

We also discuss topics such as the adoption of protocols like ActivityPub, which is helping to decentralise social media experiences with platforms like Mastodon, and how this growing trend away from corporate platforms towards more open, standards-based alternatives.

The conversation also touches on the role of state interventions, privacy concerns, and the rise of creative independence on the web. There's intriguing developments like POSSE (Publish on your Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere) and Web Mentions, which support decentralised and independent publishing.

If you're intrigued by the shift towards a more humane, personalised web experience, or you're exploring how to reclaim your online identity, this episode is for you.

Join Nathan and David as they explore not just the theoretical underpinnings of the Indie Web, but also practical steps you can take to become part of this movement.

On the podcast today, we’re diving deep into a crucial discussion for website developers and enthusiasts alike: the considerations between static and dynamic content-heavy websites. I’m joined by our hosts, Nathan Wrigley and David Waumsley, who will unravel the complexities of these two approaches.

Throughout their conversation, Nathan and David explore various facets of website architecture, starting with the fundamental concept of atomizing components like headers and footers for efficient management. They delve into the resurgence of a more code-centric web development practice as opposed to the no-code trend typically associated with WordPress.

Static site generators are a hot topic in this episode, with David and Nathan highlighting popular options like Hugo, 11ty, Next JS, and Astro. Despite these tools’ growing popularity, they don’t shy away from discussing the challenges, such as the need for technical skills and the overwhelming choice of over 365 static site generators.

WordPress, a staple in their web development careers, is contrasted with newer static site approaches, noting the ease of use versus the deep control over code output. They also weigh in on SEO and automation considerations, crucial for content-heavy sites, and the financial aspects tied to maintaining WordPress sites.

In a candid moment, David shares his experience transitioning to 11ty, a flexible static site generator favored for its simplicity and quick build times. They discuss the learning curve, especially for those not well-versed in JavaScript, and the potential of using 11ty for larger projectsThe dynamic vs. static debate continues as they consider the future of their own website, touching on personal reflections and the exciting possibilities that come with exploring new technologies.

If you’re navigating the choice between dynamic content management systems like WordPress and the evolving landscape of static site generators, this episode promises valuable insights and practical advice. Tune in, and join Nathan and David as they tackle the dynamic and static showdown head-on.

In this episode of No Script Show, Nathan Wrigley and David Waumsley dive into the evolving landscape of frontend development, focusing on the divide between UX designers and JavaScript specialists. Join us for a detailed discussion on the complexities and dynamics of modern web design.

• The role of Google and Meta in open source and their impact on project stability.
• Evolution of CSS and JavaScript, including trends like using CSS as a programming language.
• The growing complexity and specialisation in frontend development and its effects on newcomers.
• Insights on the divide within WordPress development between block editors and traditional coding.
• Emerging technologies like Web Assembly and their anticipated impact on web development.

Timestamps:

00:00 Summary: Last topic on WP Builds platform, relevant WordPress changes.

05:20 Concerns about changes in web design industry.

08:29 Women find communication jobs using HTML, JavaScript.

11:11 Complex code could impact performance and users.

15:56 Google and other companies support open source.

17:44 JavaScript essential for front end developers.

21:36 CSS grid enables fluid web design breakthroughs.

23:21 Apple's advertising of seemingly pointless features.

28:17 Efficient tools simplify CSS coding and structure.

32:20 Brave browser activates reader mode automatically.

33:22 Desire for web integration in everyday objects.

37:05 Gutenberg's impact on WordPress page building.

42:00 Coyier's article emphasises WebPress development and winners.

43:16 Transitioning to video content from podcast.