On the podcast today, David and Nathan are back with the second episode in their new series, where they break down the key components that make up a website. Today, they’re talking about website navigation, and asking the surprisingly sticky question: why is it so bloody awful?

David has done a deep dive into the ins and outs of navigation, putting together an exhaustive list of all the pieces involved. Nathan admits he used to take a much simpler approach, just add the top-level links and hope Google did the rest, but David’s research proves there’s a lot more going on beneath the surface.

They start by exploring the shifting meaning of terms like “menu,” “navigation,” and “nav,” both from a developer and a user’s perspective. Is it a noun? Is it a verb? Is it a technical role? As they discovered, even big names in UX like the Nielsen Norman Group can’t seem to agree.

From there, they walk through the many different types of website navigation: main links, hamburger menus, even on desktop, breadcrumbs, dropdowns (on hover or click), mega menus, and more. And it’s not just the styles that are confusing, there’s a tangle of terminology too, with “dropdowns,” “flyouts,” and “pull downs” meaning different things to different people.

David and Nathan share their frustrations with modern navigation: hidden menu items, ambiguous links, and the accessibility pitfalls of complicated dropdowns. They talk about why menus can be especially tricky on mobile, and how easy it is for even pros to get lost in their own site’s nav. David explains his approach of keeping things simple, stopping at HTML and CSS wherever possible, and only grudgingly adding JavaScript when absolutely needed.

They then explore the design, SEO, and accessibility issues that come with modern navigation patterns: from accidentally hiding important links from both users and Google, to building mega menus that are impossible to navigate by keyboard, to the sheer overwhelm of too many choices.

The conversation is packed with real-world frustrations, rants about hover-based menus, and practical tips on creating accessible, user-friendly website navigation. If you’ve ever been baffled by your own website’s menu, or just want to build smarter, simpler navigation that works for everyone, this episode is for you.