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Where does a sermon actually come from?

In this conversation, Jonathan sits down with Rev Jerry Jones, whose messages have shaped a generation — and asks the question most of us never get to ask: what was the genesis of that message?

Two sermons anchor the conversation. And in both cases, the answer starts in personal devotions, not sermon prep.

"But Amnon Had a Friend."

A sermon that has been preached for over thirty-five years and still lands. It began with a question about youth camp — what breaks through on the first night when students arrive carrying weight from every kind of background? The answer was peer pressure, the one universal struggle. And the text was already there: Amnon, the heir apparent to David's throne, who knew what was right and was winning the fight — until a friend named Jonadab talked him out of it.

The conversation traces how the sermon evolved, how "a friend" broadened over the decades to include culture, society, and now TikTok, X, and Instagram. And how it closes — with a grandmother in the grip of dementia who could not recognize her own grandson, but who said, on the bad days, I sing. What a friend we have in Jesus.

"The Lost Letter."

The 2025 General Conference message. It started in devotion — Paul telling the Colossians to share their letter with Laodicea and to read the one sent there. Except there is no letter to Laodicea. Somewhere along the way, a church that was neither hot nor cold simply let it slide.

And it converged with a story from home: a hat that once belonged to Andrew Urshan, thrown in a trash can because nobody knew what it was, rescued by someone walking past who did. When Urshan's great-granddaughter later asked if she could hold it, something clicked.

The result was a message about what we're teaching when we quietly remove things — altar benches, communion tables, pulpits, songbooks, the preacher on the platform. Not because any of it decides heaven or hell. But because those things were teaching something, and we may not have realized it.

Don't tear a fence down until you know why it was built.

The closing questions. What sermon that someone else preached impacted you the most? And what sermon that you preached impacted you the most? The answers include A.D. Spears on grace, O.R. Fauss on "The Danger of Side Roads," and a message on the glory of God drawn from Moses interceding after the golden calf — where Moses won his appeal not by pleading God's love or grace, but His glory.

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There will come a season in your ministry when you are not sure.

The work is hard. The fruit is thin. And somewhere in the middle of a Tuesday you are going to catch yourself asking the question out loud: Did I actually hear God on this?

When that season comes — and it will come — you are going to need something more substantial than a feeling to stand on.

This episode is drawn from material Jonathan has taught to undergraduate preaching students for over sixteen years. Every semester there are two groups in the room: those wrestling with whether they're called, and those certain about it who have never really examined why. This episode is for both.

The working definition: Calling is a sustained conviction, confirmed by the church, that God has set you apart to proclaim His Word.

What this episode covers:

What calling is not — not a feeling, not excitement, not being good at public speaking, and not your pastor handing you the mic one Wednesday night. None of those things are bad. None of them, by themselves, are a call.

Why sustained means duration, not intensity — a calling that shows up at youth camp in July and disappears by December is an experience, not a calling. Callings hold when it's hard. They hold when nobody claps.

Why you do not call yourself — God calls preachers; the church confirms them. If nobody sees it in you but you, that's not a disqualification, but it is a reason to slow down.

George Peters' four biblical implications of the call — sovereignly exercised by the Holy Spirit, individual and personal, unique to the ministry of the Word, and a call to work. Including the line that convicts: If you love preaching but you do not love people, you are not called to preach. You are called to talk.

Four channels God uses to make the call known — human instrumentality, the Word, crisis experiences, and sound logical thinking. Some of you are waiting for a burning bush while God has already spoken through three pastors and a passage you cannot get away from.

The persuasion of the call — including why a deep sense of personal inadequacy belongs on the list. Moses felt inadequate. Jeremiah said he was too young. The preacher who feels entirely adequate for this work has misunderstood the work.

If you came in certain, this episode is meant to root you deeper. If you came in wrestling — the wrestling is not evidence against your calling.

Books referenced: George Peters, A Biblical Theology of Missions · Stephen Olford, Anointed Expository Preaching

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"We can only go as high as our character is deep."

In this episode, Jonathan sits down with Darin Sargent — author, coach, and a friend of nearly thirty years — for a conversation that goes past sermon mechanics and into the thing most preachers actually struggle with.

Anybody can learn the skill of putting a sermon together. What most preachers struggle with is learning the character.

This conversation is honest, funny, and at points genuinely vulnerable. It's about who you are when nobody's watching, and what happens when that person and the one in the pulpit aren't the same.

What this conversation covers:

Being born with one hand — and why Darin calls it a qualification, not a limitation. How a visible difference shaped his dependence on God, and what Paul meant about glorying in infirmity.

What younger Darin got wrong. The honest admission that early in ministry he was very concerned about what people thought about his preaching — and where he's landed after thirty-five years: if he ministers to one person something God gave him, that's enough.

Preaching past conviction. Why so many young preachers keep going when hearts are already ready to respond — because there are still three pages of notes left. The word produces faith. And we preach right past it.

Character and calling. Why we elevate people based on talent and ability, what happens when their character doesn't match their gifting, and the honest claim that we have been the cause of a lot of burnout in preachers by pushing them to stages they weren't ready for. Paul told Timothy not to exalt a novice. There's a reason.

Volume does not equal anointing. A frank exchange about whether congregations actually see the gap in a preacher who lacks depth — and Darin's answer, that maybe our measurements are wrong.

Comparison — the lion that attacks preachers most. From memorizing sermons on tape in Bible college to the conclusion that saved him: I have to be Darin Sargent. I can't be Jonathan McClintock. Figure out who you are, and go in that vein.

Benaiah and the lion in the pit. Why going on offense against what's beneath the surface is so counterintuitive — and why you'd better take care of some things in your twenties so they don't destroy you in your forties.

The most vulnerable moment in the episode. Darin on things that came out in his preaching he wishes he could take back: "Please don't take frustrations to the pulpit." What's in the heart eventually leaks — you may be able to control behavior, but speech is harder.

The four-part filter for every decision — faith, family, friends, future — and the sobering line underneath it: one decision can derail your destiny.

Two takeaways for the developing preacher. Life moves at the speed of relationships. And there are some things you'll never know unless you're willing to grow.

Darin is the author of Battle of the Beasts: Defeating the Lions That Oppose Your Destiny and Parenting with Purpose, with more on the way. Find him on the Darin Sargent Podcast.