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“If you keep going after you get to that peak, there is nowhere to go.”

In Episode 31, Jonathan sits down with Paul Pamer, senior pastor of the Apostolic Church in Barberton, Ohio and Men’s Ministries Director for the United Pentecostal Church International, for a conversation about legacy, adaptability, and what it actually takes to preach to men.

What this conversation covers:

A boy who wanted to be a preacher and a Kroger bag boy. Paul tells the story of riding in a shopping cart at his local Kroger, watching the bag boy who seemed important to the process, and carrying a sense of calling that traces back through his dad and both grandfathers. His great-grandparents started the church he now pastors. His father has attended it for seventy-four years.

What generations of ministry handed down. Loyalty, work ethic, and a love for truth. A grandfather who pastored while retiring from building tires after thirty years of service. Another who pastored while running the largest employer in North Little Rock. People who were the exact same at home as they were on a platform at a conference. As Paul puts it, borrowing from Eugene Peterson, a long obedience in the same direction.

Why you have to preach in different venues. Some of the finest preachers in America fall apart when they have to wear a pair of blue jeans and preach around a campfire at a men’s retreat. Paul walks through why youth ministry was the best preaching training he could have had, why he preached at nursing homes where four people showed up and three were asleep, and why the way you preach on a national stage rarely translates to a Wednesday night.

Preaching past the appeal. This is the heart of the conversation. There is a moment when people are ready to respond, and Paul describes what it costs when a preacher keeps going. You summited K2. If you keep climbing past the peak, you are headed toward Tibet, you are going south, and now gravity is working against you. Jonathan connects it to Wayne Huntley’s warning about preaching past conviction.

The convergence of time and technology. Paul names what he is hearing from men across the country. Time pressure from work, side hustles, and everything competing for a weeknight. Then technology layered on top of it, including the dopamine pull of video games that keeps men up until three in the morning. He notes that video games are never in his notes, and the Holy Ghost brings it up every single time he preaches to men.

Preaching to shame without crushing or excusing. Why men appreciate honesty and transparency, and why Paul spends deliberate time with brand new people and with sinners so he never goes tone deaf. If he is going to be out of touch with anyone, he would rather be out of touch with the fifty-year church member.

Credibility with men. Know the difference between a trout and a bass. Own a pair of blue jeans. Know that football is king in Alabama and barbecue matters in Texas. Men will struggle to receive your exegesis of Ephesians when they cannot see you as a real person.

The closing word. Drawing from Romans 10, Paul lands it: you have to find a way to engage men socially so that you can engage them spiritually.