Sarah Williams, founder and CEO of Leading Culture and former director at GAP Consulting for 23 years, brings her accounting background and business growth strategy expertise to a spirited debate about ROI, value-based pricing, and why companies leave money on the table.

From her home in New Zealand (Mark's second favorite country), Sarah challenges conventional pricing wisdom—arguing that ROI applies to both B2B and B2C, that we should ignore competitors when determining value, and that the antidote to the curse of knowledge is thinking with a beginner's mind.

Mark pushes back on opportunity costs, explains why competitor pricing matters, and uses everything from vests to Louis Vuitton handbags to make his points in this engaging conversation about helping customers understand the true value of what they're buying.

Why You Have to Check Out Today's Podcast:

• Understand why teaching customers to think in ROI is the fastest way to eliminate buyer's remorse, increase prices, and differentiate from competitors who focus on features.
• Discover the beginner's mind approach that prevents the #1 mistake pricing experts make—assuming customers know what seems "obvious" to you.
• Master vulnerability-based trust by inviting customers to ask questions without fear—the counterintuitive sales technique that accelerates deals faster than "looking professional".

"Think in terms of value from the customer's perspective."

– Sarah Williams

Topics Covered:

03:01 - Why ROI Should Be Everyone's Decision-Making Framework

06:10 - Helping Customers Think in ROI Terms: Your Job as the Provider

08:12 - Utility in Economics: The B2C Alternative to Monetary ROI

20:00 - The Opportunity Cost Debate: Pricing vs. Budgeting Decisions

25:19 - Differentiation Value: Starting with Competitor's Price, Then Adding

27:57 - Louis Vuitton vs. $40 Handbags: Conspicuous Consumption and What People Really Buy

32:31 - Starting with a Blank Slate: Thinking Myopically About Customer Value

35:32 - Final Advice: Think in Terms of Value from the Customer's Perspective

Key Takeaways:

ROI on its own can be a decision-making framework. From the point of view of maybe even making a personal decision, I can think about, well, what's the return on investment? And that might even be an investment of my time." - Sarah Williams

"We're doing our customers a disservice if we're not helping them to think in terms of ROI. Like, what really am I getting? Because buyer's remorse is really, really prevalent. People make split-second decisions now and then live to regret it 24 hours later." - Sarah Williams

"In economics, there's this concept called utility, right? So, I think in terms of when you're thinking B2C, now you're shifting the conversation a little bit more towards the utility angle in economics." - Sarah Williams

People / Resources Mentioned:

• Jim Collins: Author of "Good to Great"
• Chip and Dan Heath: Authors of "Made to Stick" and the concept of the curse of knowledge
• Patrick Lencioni: Leadership expert who popularized vulnerability-based trust and predictive trust concepts
• GAP Consulting: Where Sarah served as director for 23 years
• Complete Learning Solutions: Where Sarah was Chief Inspiration Officer
• Louis Vuitton: Used as example of luxury pricing vs. commodity pricing
• iPhone: Example of blue ocean differentiation where customers don't compare competitor prices
• Huawei: Mentioned as iPhone alternative that iPhone users don't consider when upgrading

Connect with Sarah Williams:

• Email: sarah@leadingculture.co.nz
• Website: https://www.leadingculture.co.nz/home
• AI Summit Link: https://www.leadingculture.co.nz/ai-summit-registration-page

Connect with Mark Stiving:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stiving/
• Email: mark@impactpricing.com