When division deepens and confidence in our institutions erodes, ordinary people still have far more influence than we may realize. In this episode, Leigh speaks with author and civic-engagement leader Paul Loeb about citizenship—not as a legal status, but as a civic mindset: the choice to care about what happens beyond our individual lives and to participate in shaping our communities, institutions, and democracy. At its heart, engaged citizenship is an expression of agency—the belief that our choices and actions matter, even in difficult and uncertain times. Their conversation offers a hopeful reminder that each of us can help change what happens next.

Drawing on decades of research and the enduring lessons of his landmark books Soul of a Citizen and The Impossible Will Take A While, Paul offers practical, accessible ways to put that civic mindset into action. He and Leigh explore how to move forward without waiting for perfect circumstances, find courage through community, resist the paralysis of relentless bad news, and sustain hope when progress feels impossible. Leigh and Paul have a spirited discussion - sharing stories of principled action, times when things didn’t always go right, and sorting through the reality that agency matters even when the way ahead is not clear. A key take away is that history often turns because ordinary people decide to participate even amid risk and uncertainty. These are powerful lessons for citizens and leaders who work hard to build connection and alignment in polarized times.

Four Key Themes

1. Citizenship Is Agency in Action: Citizenship extends beyond voting, political affiliation, or legal status. It is the everyday practice of participating in the life of a community. Each of us can examine the roles we hold, the people we know, and the institutions we influence—and decide how to use that power responsibly.

2. Hope Means Acting Without Guarantees: Hope is not certainty that everything will turn out well. It is the willingness to contribute even when results are delayed, unclear, or invisible. An action that appears unsuccessful may still sustain another person, expand what is possible, or become part of a longer arc of change.

3. Perfection Can Become an Excuse for Inaction: Waiting for perfect knowledge, language, timing, or circumstances can keep us from ever beginning. Meaningful participation starts when we take a useful step with what we know and have today—then remain willing to learn, adjust, and repair mistakes along the way.

4. Courage Grows Through Community: Agency becomes stronger when people act together. Communities provide encouragement, protection, and staying power. One person’s brave choice can make it easier for others to follow, allowing small acts to build into collective influence.

Learn more about Paul and his books here: https://www.paulloeb.org/take-awhile/

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Check out Leigh's advisory work: www.imaginal-leadership.com

In this special bonus episode, I follow up on my conversation with Bree Rose, who shared her experience as the mother of Storm, her nonbinary teenager. I wanted to hear Storm’s perspective on their journey, and our conversation was fun, deep, and reminded me that young people today hold incredible wisdom and insight despite a world too often torn by polarization.

Now 17, Storm speaks candidly about beginning to question their gender identity at age 12, the relief of discovering that they did not have to fit into a prescribed box, and the safety they felt knowing their family’s love would not change. They also share what it means to experiment with how they present themselves and navigate a world that does not always make room for people who defy conventional expectations.

Storm brings both honesty and a roundedness far beyond their years to the everyday realities nonbinary and transgender young people can face -- from public scrutiny and other people’s discomfort to the anxiety of deciding which public restroom feels safest. Their experience makes visible the personal consequences of debates that can otherwise feel abstract or purely political. At the same time, Storm’s flourishing is a powerful testament to what becomes possible when someone can live in alignment with who they know themselves to be.

Together, Storm, Bree, and I explore the difference between making an honest mistake and refusing to learn; how families can offer fierce support without being able to protect their children from every hurt; and why grace does not require us to remain silent in the face of prejudice. We also discuss the value of curiosity and the importance of allowing people to tell us who they are.

Despite the challenges, Storm remains hopeful. They draw inspiration from people who advocate for change in ways large and small—from public protest to quiet acts of kindness, courage, and solidarity. Storm’s message is simple and powerful: as long as people keep trying, change remains possible.

In this episode, we explore:

• What Storm experienced when they first began questioning their gender identity
• Why their family’s love and support made it possible to speak openly
• The possibilities and limitations of identity labels
• What it feels like to move through public spaces as a nonbinary young person
• The difference between not yet understanding and refusing to understand
• How grace, learning, and advocacy can coexist
• Why everyday acts of courage give Storm hope

This episode is an invitation to listen to a young person describe their own life in their own words—and to approach complex questions about gender identity with greater curiosity, humility, and humanity.

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