Julie’s dark night – or her “descent into the belly of the whale” – first began when she lost her mother while pregnant with her daughter. “It just snowballed from one bad event to another,” and she was diagnosed with severe post-partum depression. Eventually, feeling “lost and alone,” she began seeking, “looking for a way to find solace.” Believing herself to be fundamentally flawed – as she’d been conditioned to believe by an authoritarian Christian upbringing – it took many years before she realised that “seeking was taking me away from myself,” and slowly began to turn towards herself.

Amongst many other things, Julie and I talk about being forced to stop; all the “good girl stuff” like keeping the peace and learning to perform; and the transgressive nature of carving out space and time for ourselves. We discuss eventually seeing the extent of our fawning; becoming aware of the pain of self-betrayal; and coming back to loving ourselves. We touch on knowing the inherent value of everything and everyone; the importance of calling back our rejected parts; and the need for stillness and slowing down. We also mention the “mystery larger than us that knows the way”; the sacredness of life; and loving weird insects.

Julie Freeman is a semi-retired psychotherapist, artist, feminist, spiritual seeker, highly sensitive person, recovering codependent and would-be writer. Her article, Dark Night of the Soul in Three Acts, is on Substack. She is the co-founder of Speak Up Sister, an international organization dedicated to helping women and girls build confidence, safety, resilience, and assertiveness for the advancement of gender equality and human rights world wide.

Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.

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Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Julie was already a philosopher and psychoanalyst when her dark night began. In questioning her experience of depression, she came up with what she calls negative practice or negative philosophy, “installing places where negativity and suffering can be encountered without escaping into positivity.”

Amongst many other things, we discuss depression as a perspective on and compassion to the world; trauma as an initiation into the knowing of the too-muchness and horror of reality; and the concept of social death. We talk about the importance of truly witnessing horror, rather than trying to find solutions to it; trying to unhappen the past; and the end of hope. We touch on the idea of motherhood, both existentially and physically; being blamed, and accepting blame; and the pain of our children’s pain. We mention the radical transformations of labour, menopause, and aging; the idea of the therapy session as a funeral for what’s being lost; and the dark night as a time during which “you hold the world for a while.” Julie cites the work of Susan Brison, and her account of rape; she “imposes” some of Heidegger’s philosophy, and describes her idea of being-with-towards-death; and she questions the philosophical notion of the subject.

Dr Julie Reshe is a philosopher, and the author of a negative psychoanalytic approach. She holds the position of a Visiting Professor at University College Cork and University College Dublin, and is also a Director of the Institute of Psychoanalysis, Global Center for Advanced Studies. She is the author of Negative Psychoanalysis for the Living Dead: Philosophical Pessimism and the Death Drive; Death and Love: Psychoanalytic and Philosophical Perspectives (co-edited with Todd McGowan), and Negative Essays on Death, Love, and Depressive Realism. Her essay on Ukrainian war widows is on Aeon.

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Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.

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Mentions

Julie cites Susan Brison’s book, Aftermath: Violence and the Remaking of a Self.

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Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Allison’s dark night began with an eating disorder, depression, and “lifelessness” when she was twenty. She found a spiritual wellbeing class in the dance studio of a local college, and began “to become ready to face what it was.” Very gradually, she started to explore the “inner beast,” meeting it and letting it unravel through movement. Eventually, she built the capacity to stay with the “mini dark night” spirals, which continue to this day.

Amongst many other things, we talk about being paralysed in the dark night and how we might start to move, even slightly; beginning to follow the threads of what’s here; and the dark night as an “instigator of inquiry.” We discuss sensing into what wants to move, and how; dancing with beliefs and conditioning; and not “digging for trauma.” We touch on awe, unknowing and collaboration; being good listeners; and trusting “the greater mysterious thing.” We mention the relief of naming what’s here; the unpredictable unravelling of layers; and the moments of “oh, no wonder.” We also delve into going to the bottom of the well and not knowing if we’ll come back out; living in a fabricated existence; and giving what’s here a voice.

Allison Pagano has created a body of work – Embodied Dance – that bridges movement, somatics, and energy medicine. Born from over twenty five years of exploration, her work centres on the truth that the body is an intelligent guidance system. She has been a Professor of Dance at several US universities, and has undertaken many somatic trainings. She lives, works and dances in Brunswick Heads, Australia.

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Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.

Connect with Fiona

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You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com

Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Following on from our previous conversation in Episode 27, Fiona and I dive into shame. We begin with our understanding of the possible evolutionary purpose of shame, and how and when it becomes toxic and harmful. We talk about how shame “gets put on us”; how any kind of abuse is inherently shaming; and how we end up feeling the disowned shame of those who perpetrate shameful behaviour. We touch into the self-abandonment that comes when we’re shamed such that we feel there is something inherently wrong with us; feeling shame when the natural reaction to our circumstances would be anger; the layering or compounding of shame – including feeling shame for feeling shame; and how shame festers in isolation.

Amongst many other things, we also discuss how shame distorts the lens through which we see ourselves; being crippled with shame; and how it often dissipates “in togetherness.” We mention how the inner critic develops – in part – to avoid further shaming by being “good” and behaving according to the rules, and how in the dark night the rules “start to wash off.” Finally, we move into belonging to ourselves; gaining self-authority, dignity and trust in our own knowing; and giving shame “a seat at the table.”

Fiona Matalon is a somatic psychotherapist. She offers a holistic approach to those who are looking to deepen their relationship to themselves and to live a life that is led by their heart, soul and inner knowing. In sessions, together with her clients, she uses the intelligence of the body to allow a deeper exploraton that goes beyond the everyday mind. She brings her own deep lived experience and continuous learnings into her practice.

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Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.

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Mentions

Fiona Matalon cites The Relationship Grid developed by Terry Real.

Fiona Robertson mentions Gisèle Pelicot, author of A Hymn to Life: Shame has to Change Sides. She also mentions her blog post, On Shame and Sharing.

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You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com

Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Bill’s dark night began after a period of upheaval, in which he lost his long-standing relationship and his previously-successful business. Having met his new partner, and terrified of being loved, he began to face a lifetime of abandonments, and all the versions of himself that he’d made in order to survive them. A profound period of intensity followed – “divine spiritual psychedelic writhing intensity” – during which his survival identities began to unravel, and his “made self” collapsed.

Amongst many other things, Bill and I discuss the caution required to talk about our experiences; the death throes of the hope that we might eventually become enough; and trying to become what we thought we needed to be. We talk about trying to make better versions of ourselves; spiritualising and condescension veiled as kindness; and the doorway of not knowing. We also touch on using knowledge as a way to try to be safe; how the “echoes of patterns” and the unwinding continue; and developing “spiritual musculature.” Finally, we mention getting ourselves out of the way; being shown the beliefs that “we’re hanging on to”; acknowedging that “sometimes, shit hurts”; and ultimately having “the willingness to walk through it.”

Bill Newgent writes and coaches about unlearning – helping exhausted high-achievers stop earning their worth and remembering they already have it. Drawing from decades of study, spiritual training, and lived experience of building and losing everything, his approach integrates Jungian psychology, masculine-feminine balance, and the recognition that what we seek isn’t missing – it’s hidden beneath our identities and the beliefs we build around them. He writes as a fellow traveller, not guru, and embraces real-world spirituality. His spiritual memoir, Unlearning Myself: A Journey Back to Inner Wisdom and Peace, is available now, and was written as an invitation or companion for those who are willing.

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Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.

Connect with Fiona

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You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com

Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

*Please note that this episode contains descriptions of suicidal ideation.

Tam had a series of dark nights, the “big one” being a spiritual emergency and its aftershocks that started when she was in her late twenties. Beset with social issues, including homelessness, her “grip on consensus reality” began to falter. Soon, a “curtain came down” in her conscious mind and she found herself in a horrifying hellscape, facing her deepest fears. Having been told she was evil from a young age, the child part of her was “still there and still terrified.” Trying to navigate her way through a psychosis diagnosis, doctors, and medication, she eventually met a psychiatrist who saw her as a human being and turned her life around.

Amongst many other things, Tam and I talk about the multitudes within; the nature of the shadow and the stuff that gets “pushed beneath the surface”; and having incredible insights into “the secrets of the universe.” We touch on the moment in which “any possibility of suicide was gone”; rediscovering our indigeneity and becoming one with the land; and “the lid flying off the pressure cooker.” We discuss the nature of spiritual emergency and its preciousness and meaning; flipping between realities and dimensions, and the Kahlil Gibran quote that carried her through.

Tam Martin Fowles is a London-based nana, wife, mum, writer, international facilitator, trainer, lecturer and consultant. A psychosis diagnosis at age 29, which she later came to understand as a spiritual emergency, has informed her life and work, engendering a fascination with the phenomenology of consciousness, and commitment to challenging the paradigm surrounding mental health distress. Tam is founding director of Hope in the Heart CIC and a co-founder of the MadPsychedelics Collaboratory.

Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.

Connect with Fiona

Mentions

Tam quotes this line from Kahlil Gibran’s poem, On Pain. “Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding.”

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.

You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com

Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Letia’s dark night of the soul was preceded by the realisation that she hadn’t been honouring “a big part” of herself. Already initiated as a Navajo Medicine Woman, she eventually embarked on the path of sacred sexuality, and discovered “the missing piece” – eros, the energy of desire and creation. She then spent a year doing deep shadow work, facing her self-sabotaging behaviours and old identities. The process culminated in a profound dark night experience, during which she had no choice but to surrender as her body released. She found herself spontaneously forgiving her brother’s murderer, and subsequently went through a rebirth more painful than actual birth; “I was giving birth while being born.”

Amongst many other things, we talk about the realities of shadow work, including weaving and failing; the “spiritual flu” and how “hard core emotional expression” depletes the body; and feeling hollow. We touch on mourning the only version of ourselves we’ve ever known; building a new self; and the importance of boundaries and anchors. We ponder on the true nature of forgiveness, and why it can’t be forced; meeting our inner child; and collective and individual soul sickness. We also mention (and laugh about) having to learn patience; moving slowly, and coming back to ourselves.

Letia Perry is a Navajo Medicine Woman, breathwork coach, shadow work guide, Foundation Training instructor, and Sacred Sexual Healer with over 10,000 hours of holding space. She delivers what many call the most powerful breathwork experience in the world. Author of Sacred Flirtship and creator of the world's first handmade Navajo language busy book for children, she bridges ancient indigenous wisdom with embodied healing, guiding souls through the deepest transformations.

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Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.

Connect with Fiona

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You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com

Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Andrea has had a few dark nights, the first of which were focussed around an eating disorder. Growing up in a family – and a culture – obsessed with appearance, she struggled with self-criticism and rampant perfectionism, and was “lost in shame for decades.” She searched for help for a long time, and eventually came to realise that, while she had believed her body to be the problem, it was actually her thinking that was disordered. Gradually, “the iceberg of programmes and self-hatred began to melt.” Andrea’s second dark night almost took her life. She got physically sick, and “was in a puddle of zero energy.” Slowly, she began to hear her body’s whispers, and came out of the grip of perfectionism into kindness.

Amongst many other things, Andrea and I talk about feeling the buried feelings that “got stuffed down”; some things needing to die and others needing to be born; and discovering our innate wisdom. We touch on tending to the breed that we are; honouring our nervous systems; and the biochemistry of old programming. We also discuss borrowing hope from those who “have been where you are and gotten through it”; realising that something is being asked of you; and blooming where we’re planted.

Andrea Wachter, LMFT, is a licensed psychotherapist, author, and meditation teacher who is passionate about helping people overcome anxiety, depression, disordered eating, body image issues, and relationship conflicts. Drawing from professional expertise, personal recovery, and a good dose of humor, Andrea brings compassion and practical tools to her work with others. She offers a variety of affordable online courses and free guided meditations that provide a wide range of strategies for healing, growth, and meaningful change.

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Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.

Connect with Fiona

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.

You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com

Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit