Julie’s dark night – or her “descent into the belly of the whale” – first began when she lost her mother while pregnant with her daughter. “It just snowballed from one bad event to another,” and she was diagnosed with severe post-partum depression. Eventually, feeling “lost and alone,” she began seeking, “looking for a way to find solace.” Believing herself to be fundamentally flawed – as she’d been conditioned to believe by an authoritarian Christian upbringing – it took many years before she realised that “seeking was taking me away from myself,” and slowly began to turn towards herself.

Amongst many other things, Julie and I talk about being forced to stop; all the “good girl stuff” like keeping the peace and learning to perform; and the transgressive nature of carving out space and time for ourselves. We discuss eventually seeing the extent of our fawning; becoming aware of the pain of self-betrayal; and coming back to loving ourselves. We touch on knowing the inherent value of everything and everyone; the importance of calling back our rejected parts; and the need for stillness and slowing down. We also mention the “mystery larger than us that knows the way”; the sacredness of life; and loving weird insects.

Julie Freeman is a semi-retired psychotherapist, artist, feminist, spiritual seeker, highly sensitive person, recovering codependent and would-be writer. Her article, Dark Night of the Soul in Three Acts, is on Substack. She is the co-founder of Speak Up Sister, an international organization dedicated to helping women and girls build confidence, safety, resilience, and assertiveness for the advancement of gender equality and human rights world wide.

Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.

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Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Julie was already a philosopher and psychoanalyst when her dark night began. In questioning her experience of depression, she came up with what she calls negative practice or negative philosophy, “installing places where negativity and suffering can be encountered without escaping into positivity.”

Amongst many other things, we discuss depression as a perspective on and compassion to the world; trauma as an initiation into the knowing of the too-muchness and horror of reality; and the concept of social death. We talk about the importance of truly witnessing horror, rather than trying to find solutions to it; trying to unhappen the past; and the end of hope. We touch on the idea of motherhood, both existentially and physically; being blamed, and accepting blame; and the pain of our children’s pain. We mention the radical transformations of labour, menopause, and aging; the idea of the therapy session as a funeral for what’s being lost; and the dark night as a time during which “you hold the world for a while.” Julie cites the work of Susan Brison, and her account of rape; she “imposes” some of Heidegger’s philosophy, and describes her idea of being-with-towards-death; and she questions the philosophical notion of the subject.

Dr Julie Reshe is a philosopher, and the author of a negative psychoanalytic approach. She holds the position of a Visiting Professor at University College Cork and University College Dublin, and is also a Director of the Institute of Psychoanalysis, Global Center for Advanced Studies. She is the author of Negative Psychoanalysis for the Living Dead: Philosophical Pessimism and the Death Drive; Death and Love: Psychoanalytic and Philosophical Perspectives (co-edited with Todd McGowan), and Negative Essays on Death, Love, and Depressive Realism. Her essay on Ukrainian war widows is on Aeon.

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Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.

Connect with Fiona

Mentions

Julie cites Susan Brison’s book, Aftermath: Violence and the Remaking of a Self.

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.

You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com

Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Allison’s dark night began with an eating disorder, depression, and “lifelessness” when she was twenty. She found a spiritual wellbeing class in the dance studio of a local college, and began “to become ready to face what it was.” Very gradually, she started to explore the “inner beast,” meeting it and letting it unravel through movement. Eventually, she built the capacity to stay with the “mini dark night” spirals, which continue to this day.

Amongst many other things, we talk about being paralysed in the dark night and how we might start to move, even slightly; beginning to follow the threads of what’s here; and the dark night as an “instigator of inquiry.” We discuss sensing into what wants to move, and how; dancing with beliefs and conditioning; and not “digging for trauma.” We touch on awe, unknowing and collaboration; being good listeners; and trusting “the greater mysterious thing.” We mention the relief of naming what’s here; the unpredictable unravelling of layers; and the moments of “oh, no wonder.” We also delve into going to the bottom of the well and not knowing if we’ll come back out; living in a fabricated existence; and giving what’s here a voice.

Allison Pagano has created a body of work – Embodied Dance – that bridges movement, somatics, and energy medicine. Born from over twenty five years of exploration, her work centres on the truth that the body is an intelligent guidance system. She has been a Professor of Dance at several US universities, and has undertaken many somatic trainings. She lives, works and dances in Brunswick Heads, Australia.

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Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.

Connect with Fiona

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.

You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com

Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit