Today’s conversation sits at the heart of what we do as defenders: story. I’m joined by my friend Keith Belzer, a master of courtroom storytelling who has spent years studying not just what makes a story persuasive, but why it moves people.

If you’ve been with us since episode one, you’ll know story is a frequent topic. We’ve explored finding our clients’ stories with Michele Lavigne and using story to build empathy with Matt Hefti — today, we go even deeper. Keith unpacks the roots of storytelling, the power of archetypes, and the fine line between authentic connection and empty acting. With a background in theater, he brings a rare blend of heart, attention to detail, and an understanding of performance.

Because while law school trained us to think logically, the courtroom is still a human space — and people are persuaded by emotion and meaning, not just mechanics.

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Welcome back to Sanctuary in the Jungle, a podcast for criminal defense attorneys about the importance of humanity and reason in the criminal legal system.

In this episode, host Aaron A. Nelson sits down with Texas criminal defense attorney and writer Matthew Hefti. Matt’s path to becoming a defense lawyer is deeply personal. While deployed overseas, he was involved in a tragic incident and charged with homicide in the military justice system. Matt shares how his various experiences—from writing a novel, to dismantling bombs to parenting and religion—informs how he stands with his clients and how he works to make the system more just. Drawing from his own case, he discusses how change often comes from recognizing where discretion exists—even when the system insists “there’s no other option.”

This episode is a powerful listen for criminal defense attorneys, public defenders, and trial lawyers seeking deeper insight into how we can better tell clients’ stories, demand accountability, and bring more healing into defense work.

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Matt is also the author of A Hard and Heavy Thing, a novel about friendship, sacrifice, and the weight of it all. In 2016, it was named Top Ten Books of the Year by Military times, Top Ten First Novels of the Year by Booklist and Great Group Reads pick by the Women’s National book Association.

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Sanctuary is back with a true Wisconsin criminal defense legend—Attorney Deja Vishny. A longtime public defender, Deja has handled more than 125 homicide cases, earning much recognition for her work. Deja is the recipient of NACDL's 2023 Champion of Justice award, two lifetime achievements from WACDL, the Wisconsin Law Journal's "Women in the Law" award, and many more.

She brings that depth of experience to a powerful conversation about what it means to build sanctuary in cases defined by loss. She'll tell us about how she brings humanity and healing to the courtroom, including how she has conversations with families of the deceased.

Beyond trial work, Deja teaches defense and trial advocacy across the country, serves on the faculty of the National Criminal Defense College, has held leadership roles with the NACDL, and authored a book on suppressing criminal evidence.

So tune in! Deja Vishny has much to offer.

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In this episode of Sanctuary in the Jungle, host Aaron Nelson sits down with Attorney Joe Bugni for an honest conversation about the craft — and the cost — of good advocacy. Together, they explore the clearest ways to communicate with judges, why flashy arguments aren't always the best choices for a client, and what it means to give yourself fully to the people you represent.

Joe also opens up about the harder side of that calling: the moments when giving too much pushes you to your breaking point, and how you find your way back.

It’s a vulnerable, grounded look at the heart of defense work — the clarity, the sacrifice, and the humanity behind it.

Read more from Joe Bugni:

Post Mortem of a Breakdown: A New Approach to Work

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Welcome back to Sanctuary in the Jungle. In this episode, we’re joined by Professor James E. Coleman Jr. From his first death penatly case through today, Professor Coleman endeavors to show that every human is worthy of dignity and a defense. That belief has shaped his approach to justice, from advocating for the wrongfully convicted to representing Ted Bundy as his final lawyer.

In an era of sensationalized case coverage and true crime, Coleman tells us what questions the media should be asking and how the public plays a role in accountability.

Even in the face of the heaviest cases, Professor Coleman remains what he calls a “happy warrior,” bringing hope wherever he goes. He is now a professor at Duke University Law School and co-director of the Wrongful Convictions Clinic.

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Sanctuary in the Jungle launches its first episode exactly where so many Wisconsin attorneys’ passion for criminal defense begins - with emeritus law professor Michele Lavigne. Join us as Michele and Aaron discuss why they’re so passionate about defense and how communication helps them best tell their clients’ stories.

At the University of Wisconsin Law School, Professor Lavigne led the UW Public Defender Program after serving as a public defender herself for many years. There, she researched the impact of deafness, language acquisition, and language impairments on individuals in the criminal justice system. In today’s episode, Michele shares this insight to show why effective communication is so important for attorney-client relationships, interactions with judges, and building a sanctuary.

Mentioned Readings:

Michele LaVigne & Sally Miles, “Under the Hood: Brendan Dassey, Language Impairments and Judicial Ignorance,” 82 Albany Law Review https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3379727

Michele LaVigne & Gregory Van Rybroek, “ ‘He Got In My Face So I Shot Him’: How Defendants’ Language Impairments Impair Attorney-Client Relationships” 17 CUNY Law Review 69 (2013) http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2314546

Marlantes, Karl. Matterhorn: A Novel of the Vietnam War. Atlantic Monthly Press, 2010.

Lewis, Anthony. Gideon’s Trumpet / by Anthony Lewis. Random House, 1964.

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Welcome to Sanctuary in the Jungle with Aaron Nelson, a criminal defense podcast exploring the minds, stories, and resilience of attorneys who help to create sanctuary in the courtroom.

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