Changing your mind requires vulnerability. And vulnerability requires trust. So how can a trial lawyer earn the trust of juries and judges before they try to change their minds? And when should an attorney be vulnerable and change their own mind, too?

Aaron Nelson sits down with longtime defender Bob Pepin, who has spent 40 years as a state public defender, in private practice, and as a federal defender. Bob explains why the opening statement is your chance to become the trusted truth teller, and why a lawyer who admits “I’m not sure I can do this, but I’m going to try” may be the most persuasive person in the room.

Along the way, Bob shows us how an army brat who grew up on military bases and enlisted in 1971 came to rethink his views on Vietnam, and how his father changed his mind too. We’ll learn how to use cultural references to better reach an audience, and why he’s still hopeful about the next generation of defenders, despite the changes in our field.

Changing your mind isn't a weakness. It’s the job.

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Before this podcast had a name, before COVID, it began as a collection of conversations with friends. This is the very first interview ever taped for this project, pulled out of the archives.

Meet Attorney Ben Gonring, a Madison, Wisconsin public defender who's spent thirty years as a shield protecting kids in juvenile court. Ben has a cartoon taped next to his desk of a prosecutor asking a judge to charge a tadpole as a frog — and it's become the lens through which he sees his entire career. This conversation is about why we must defend children differently than we defend adults, and what the juvenile system can teach us about criminal justice at large.

In this episode, you'll learn:

1. Why juvenile court exists as its own world. The legal and philosophical case for why a 12-year-old sitting in front of a judge can't — and shouldn't — be treated by the same rules as an adult.
2. Why the goal is behavior modification, not punishment. Ben breaks down what juvenile court is actually designed to do, and why he believes punishment alone rarely accomplishes it for anyone, kid or adult.
3. What three decades on the front lines of the system reveals about it. From the built-in fairness gaps kids face, to the small, quiet moments that change a kid's trajectory more than any verdict does — Ben's career offers an honest look at what attorneys can do in this system.

In addition to his legal lessons, Ben shows us why kindness is a skill that triumphs all, and how each of us can learn it, teach it, and use it more.

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Nineteen times, Andrea Lyon stood in front of twelve people and asked them to spare her client’s life. Nineteen times, those people chose not to convict the death penalty.

Over her ongoing 50 year career, the trial attorney the Chicago Tribune dubbed "The Angel of Death Row" began in the Cook County Public Defender's Office, where she rose to become Chief of the Homicide Task Force. Of the more than 30 potential capital cases she defended at the trial level, she took 19 all the way through the penalty phase — and won every single one, making her the first woman in the country to serve as lead attorney in a death penalty case.

Beyond the courtroom, Andrea founded the Illinois Capital Resource Center and went on to hold academic leadership roles, including a stint as Dean of Valparaiso University Law School and, before that, Clinical Professor of Law and Associate Dean of Clinical Programs at DePaul University College of Law, where she also directed the Center for Justice in Capital Cases. She's the author of the memoir Angel of Death Row: My Life as a Death Penalty Defense Lawyer, among many other publications.

But this episode isn't just about her record — it's about how she used emotion to win those cases. We discuss why juries are quick to accept fear, anger, and shame as legitimate, but treat compassion and empathy with suspicion. Because a trial isn't really a contest of facts — it's about how twelve human beings feel about those facts. Andrea shares what decades in the highest-stakes courtrooms in America taught her about the most powerful thing you can do in front of a jury: remind them they're human too.

Buy Andrea's book here.

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In this episode, we discuss the growing gap between what happens in a real trial and what shows up on screen, why Hollywood keeps inventing drama when the truth is already dramatic enough, and how those choices have reshaped the way the public understands the presumption of innocence.

Our guest is uniquely positioned to see both sides of this gap. Steve Hurley has spent decades as a criminal defense attorney in Madison, Wisconsin. He's also written for legal TV shows and movies including Primal Fear and Picket Fences, for which he shared an Emmy award. When the media portrays defense attorneys as sleazy and defendants as guilty, those stereotypes bleed into real courtroom decisions. Steve shows us what defense attorneys can and must do in trial to counter this.

Come learn along with us!

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In this episode, host Aaron Nelson sits down with Karen Smolar, the Dean of the National Criminal Defense College and former Public Defender in the Bronx, to unpack the real difference between performance skills and being performative.

Karen has spent decades training young lawyers, watching them fall into the same trap: adopting "the lawyer voice" until they sound less like truthtellers and more like TV characters. But trust in a courtroom isn't built on replicating the media. It's built on authentic tone, pacing, volume, and body language.

In this episode, you'll learn:

1. Why "performative" and "skilled at performance" are opposites
2. The physical, non-verbal elements of storytelling most lawyers never train for
3. How authenticity earns trust — from clients, judges, and juries

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Law school teaches you case analysis. Becoming a great trial lawyer comes from working hard cases with real stakes and learning on your feet.

In this episode, host Aaron Nelson sits down with Vadim Glozman, a federal defense attorney based in Chicago, who came up under the mentorship of legendary Chicago attorney Ed Genson — a man whose office saw everyone from politicians and alleged mobsters to your everyday neighbor. It's where Vadim learned that behind every case file is a human being, meaning every human has a new lesson to teach you.

In this episode, you'll learn:

1. Why the trial lawyer "playbook" doesn't exist — and why the best attorneys are the ones who learn how to figure it out when they don’t know something.
2. How to try strategies that nobody else will — because sometimes the best moves are the ones nobody thinks will work.
3. Why hiring an expensive lawyer can be the smartest move you make — and why we should all value it more.

Whether you're a young lawyer trying to find your footing or a law student wondering what actually separates good attorneys from great ones, this episode is packed with hard-earned insight you won't find in a casebook.

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What happens when one attorney realizes helping veterans one case at a time isn't enough?

Brock Hunter is a criminal defense attorney, U.S. veteran, founder of the Veterans Defense Project, and author of The Attorney's Guide to Defending Veterans in Criminal Court. He has spent his career reshaping how the legal system treats those who've served. In 2008, he helped pass a veterans sentencing statute in Minnesota: legislation that caught the attention of the U.S. Supreme Court and sparked nationwide state legislation.

But this episode starts somewhere more fundamental, with an honest look at how military service and exposure to violence actually affects people, and how those changes ripple into families, communities, and courtrooms. When we better understand how veterans find their way into the system, we better understand why compassion and accountability help bring them back to our communities.

Brock's book, The Attorney's Guide to Defending Veterans in Criminal Court puts that philosophy into practice. It covers combat PTSD, the attorney-client relationship, and legal strategies for every stage of a case. It even helped divert two of Aaron’s own clients from prison to mental health treatment.

If you work in law, mental health, veterans services, or simply care about how society treats the people it sends to war, this one's for you.

Buy Brock’s book here

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This week, host Aaron Nelson is joined again by fellow criminal defense attorney Keith Belzer for a new kind of Sanctuary analysis. In this bonus episode, we’re stepping back from serious interviews for a full breakdown of My Cousin Vinny, the 1992 courtroom comedy that somehow became required law school homework.

What seems like a fun, Friday night watch becomes a surprisingly sharp masterclass on trial skills. From Joe Pesci's relentless cross-examinations to the art of impeaching a witness, there's real courtroom strategy hiding beneath the laughs. Aaron and Keith separate the kernels of truth from the Hollywood of it all, hopefully just in time for your next hearing.

Thinking on your feet, cutting to the real questions, and mastering courtroom charm: it's all in there, wrapped in a New York accent and an ill-fitting suit. Grab some popcorn and get your law nerd on, you might just learn something new.

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