Today’s conversation sits at the heart of what we do as defenders: story. I’m joined by my friend Keith Belzer, a master of courtroom storytelling who has spent years studying not just what makes a story persuasive, but why it moves people.

If you’ve been with us since episode one, you’ll know story is a frequent topic. We’ve explored finding our clients’ stories with Michele Lavigne and using story to build empathy with Matt Hefti — today, we go even deeper. Keith unpacks the roots of storytelling, the power of archetypes, and the fine line between authentic connection and empty acting. With a background in theater, he brings a rare blend of heart, attention to detail, and an understanding of performance.

Because while law school trained us to think logically, the courtroom is still a human space — and people are persuaded by emotion and meaning, not just mechanics.

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Welcome back to Sanctuary in the Jungle, a podcast for criminal defense attorneys about the importance of humanity and reason in the criminal legal system.

In this episode, host Aaron A. Nelson sits down with Texas criminal defense attorney and writer Matthew Hefti. Matt’s path to becoming a defense lawyer is deeply personal. While deployed overseas, he was involved in a tragic incident and charged with homicide in the military justice system. Matt shares how his various experiences—from writing a novel, to dismantling bombs to parenting and religion—informs how he stands with his clients and how he works to make the system more just. Drawing from his own case, he discusses how change often comes from recognizing where discretion exists—even when the system insists “there’s no other option.”

This episode is a powerful listen for criminal defense attorneys, public defenders, and trial lawyers seeking deeper insight into how we can better tell clients’ stories, demand accountability, and bring more healing into defense work.

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Matt is also the author of A Hard and Heavy Thing, a novel about friendship, sacrifice, and the weight of it all. In 2016, it was named Top Ten Books of the Year by Military times, Top Ten First Novels of the Year by Booklist and Great Group Reads pick by the Women’s National book Association.

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Sanctuary is back with a true Wisconsin criminal defense legend—Attorney Deja Vishny. A longtime public defender, Deja has handled more than 125 homicide cases, earning much recognition for her work. Deja is the recipient of NACDL's 2023 Champion of Justice award, two lifetime achievements from WACDL, the Wisconsin Law Journal's "Women in the Law" award, and many more.

She brings that depth of experience to a powerful conversation about what it means to build sanctuary in cases defined by loss. She'll tell us about how she brings humanity and healing to the courtroom, including how she has conversations with families of the deceased.

Beyond trial work, Deja teaches defense and trial advocacy across the country, serves on the faculty of the National Criminal Defense College, has held leadership roles with the NACDL, and authored a book on suppressing criminal evidence.

So tune in! Deja Vishny has much to offer.

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