In light of the Colorado Supreme Court case Charles v. Salazar and prior conversation with Julia Sadusky and other conversations with Side X guests, we dig into Conversion Therapy (also called Reparative or Reintegrative Therapy), particularly how it intersects notions around the fluidity of sexuality. Reports on sexual fluidity opens new questions to the ethics of conversation therapies, and maybe different analysis has to why the “change is possible” narratives (e.g. Exodus Ministries) were so destructive. But maybe alternative approaches like “bisexual responsiveness” via Camille Paglia (see the linked Cracks in Postmodernity essay) suggest a different outlook on the whole affair, and open doors to intriguing considerations of the queer experience and same-sex friendship/romantic friendship.

References:

A fascinating article with so many intriguing quotes:

Cracks in Postmodernity: Conversion Therapy vs. Bisexual Responsiveness

Our episodes about/with Side X guests:

#54 - Side B & Side X in Dialogue: With Jason Thompson from Portland Fellowship

#48 - What Is Transformation? with Agape First Ministries

#41 - Unexpected Shifts: Josh’s Story of Prayer, Healing, and Attraction

#35 - Marco Casanova on Integration, Healing, and Orientation

Time Stamps:

00:00 Have you thought of joining us at Revoice?

02:31 Kinship Lab on Conversion Therapy

04:09 Sexual Fluidity Debate

06:33 Tyler’s Harvard Story

10:46 Exodus and Pray Away Documentary

14:39 Modern Reorientation Claims

19:14 Identity Versus Desire/Attraction

24:25 Side B Growth and Chastity

28:19 Defining Attraction, Sanctification and Bisexual Responsiveness

35:36 On Noticing Beauty and Desire

40:53 Paglia and Rigid Labels

45:50 Sexual Category Origins, Queer Identity, and Fluidity

51:29 Friendship Versus Therapy

57:14 Chastity and Same Sex Love

01:04:35 Romantic Friendship Debate

01:06:07 Humility and Closing Thoughts

Our friend Neth is a father, grandfather, and licensed counselor—and at the first Revoice conference in 2018, he came out to himself as gay, at the age of 54. In this episode, Neth reflected on growing up in an abusive Christian home and how this experience shaped decades of his life. Speaking both personally and professionally, he talked with us about mixed-orientation marriages, why naming yourself “gay” isn’t merely negative self-talk but an act of honesty, and why he ultimately finds Side B compelling. See also (01:05:42): Neth’s advice for people considering therapy.

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” and “Side X” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, we recommend listening to our episode #3, “A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality.” But just briefly, here’s how people often use these terms:

* “Side A” generally refers to the perspective that affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships.

Sides B, X, and Y all represent perspectives that uphold the historic Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage. Beyond that agreement, in essence:

* “Side B” recognizes people experience same-sex sexual attraction and may describe that experience using a variety of words or identity terms while still holding to the historical Christian sexual ethic.

* ”Side X” tends to emphasize the idea that sexual orientation can change, and ministers to gay people toward the aim of being “ex gay.”

* “Side Y” tends to avoid any kind of identity language associated with LGBT concerns, with the goal of not taking on an identity of being “gay.”

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #80 - Neth’s Story: Coming Out of the Closet at 54

(03:44) About Neth; and coming out after 54 years

(18:46) Suppressing or repressing, and walking “normally”

(31:41) A mixed orientation marriage, “arousal templates”

(43:55) Healing looks like accepting myself

(50:03) Gay marriage can’t produce babies

(57:09) Is saying I’m gay “negative self talk,” or a map of reality?

(01:00:45) Seeking church family

(01:05:42) Encouragements for listeners: Get in therapy

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

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★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

Logan Morrison is a trans man who leads Kaleidoscope’s trans outreach ministry in New York City. Logan talked with TJ and Tyler about coming out as trans and losing a job over it, and how Christian gospel and Christian communities had positive and negative impacts on him and many others. Tune in also for conversations about: how we distinguish experiences of gender vs. sexuality (”are you trans, or are you just lesbian?”), barriers for trans people in churches (exclusion, pronouns, bathrooms, stereotypes), and some practical steps for Christians wanting to serve and engage trans people (whether or not they’re Christians).

About Our Guest: Logan (he/him) serves as the Trans Care Specialist and Community Outreach Coordinator at Kaleidoscope Ministries, where he walks alongside trans individuals with compassion, advocacy, and faith-centered support. Through unexpected turns in his own journey, Logan discerned a calling to steward his trans experience as a bridge for creating space to share the hope of the gospel with other trans folks in authentic and relational ways. He lives in NYC with his chosen family and three dogs.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #79 - Logan Morrison on Practical Steps for Reaching the Transgender Community

(01:56) About Logan

(03:45) Moving into trans ministry with Kaleidoscope

(10:35) Coming to a definition of “trans”--and of the gospel

(19:54) Barriers and misunderstandings: Being asked to leave, politicization

(26:51) What’s the difference between sexuality and gender experience?

(35:17) How’d you decide you were trans and not lesbian?

(49:56) How my theology leads loving outreach to trans people

(52:24) Advice to Christians wanting to engage/support trans people

(59:44) What gives me hope: Some trans people don’t have baggage with the gospel

(01:03:30) Words for trans listeners

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★ Links and References

Ragamuffin Gospel: https://www.amazon.com/Ragamuffin-Gospel-Brennan-Manning/dp/1576737160

Kaleidoscope USA: https://www.kaleidoscopeusa.org/

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

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★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★