In this episode of Make It Mindful, Seth Fleischauer talks with child development expert and author Deborah Farmer Kris about awe — what it is, why it matters, and why it might be the missing piece at the center of meaningful education. What begins as a conversation about a single emotion opens up into something much bigger: a research-backed framework for understanding how wonder drives curiosity, curiosity drives intrinsic motivation, and motivation unlocks the kind of deep learning that tests can't easily measure. Along the way, Seth reflects on how awe has been quietly powering his own work at Banyan Global Learning all along — he just didn't have a word for it until now.

Together, Seth and Deborah explore the neuroscience of wonder, the contagious nature of teacher enthusiasm, and what it means to make your classroom an oasis of awe — even inside a system that doesn't always make space for it.

Key Topics Discussed:

• What awe actually is — and how researchers know when someone is feeling it (hint: it's not just the Grand Canyon)
• The difference between awe and curiosity, and why they're more intertwined than most educators realize
• The research-backed chain from awe → curiosity → intrinsic motivation → deeper learning
• How awe primes the brain for memory — and why starting with wonder, not ending with it, changes everything
• Collective effervescence and neurosynchronicity: why learning together in a state of shared wonder produces measurably better outcomes
• Why teacher awe is contagious — and what that means for how we think about subject mastery and classroom culture
• The "small self" effect: how awe quiets cognitive chatter, restores perspective, and makes us more likely to help a stranger
• Why human kindness and bravery — not nature — turn out to be the most common source of awe across cultures
• The tension between awe and the structures of schooling: mystery vs. certainty, slow attention vs. coverage, wonder vs. testing
• Why Montessori education may be quietly ahead of the curve as AI reshapes what schools need to do
• A real conversation about teenagers, art museums, and whether you can — or should — engineer awe for your kids

Guest Bio:

Deborah Farmer Kris is a child development expert, educator, and author whose work explores the intersection of social-emotional learning, positive psychology, and how children grow. She writes regularly for PBS Kids and NPR's MindShift, and her Substack, Raising Awe-Seekers, brings the latest research on wonder and well-being directly to parents and educators. Her book on the science of awe and childhood is available now.

Host Bio:

Seth Fleischauer is the founder of Banyan Global Learning and host of the Make It Mindful podcast. His work focuses on global learning, cultural competency, and the evolving role of technology in education. Through Banyan Global Learning, he develops live virtual learning experiences that connect students to people, places, and ideas around the world.

Episode Links:

• Deborah Farmer Kris's website and resources: parenthood365.com
• Raising Awe-Seekers Substack: raisingaweseekers.substack.com
• Dacher Keltner's awe research at UC Berkeley: https://greatergood.berkeley.edu
• Ethan Cross, Author of Chatter and Shift: https://www.ethankross.com/
• Mary Oliver, "The Summer Day"
• The Good Whale podcast (New York Times)
• The Overstory by Richard Powers

In this episode of Make It Mindful, Seth Fleischauer welcomes Christian Pinedo of AIEDU to explore what artificial intelligence actually means for the future of education. Rather than focusing on tools or hype, the conversation digs into how AI is exposing deeper challenges in the education system—from outdated assessment models to the need for systemic change. Drawing on his experience at Stanford’s Institute for Human-Centered AI and now working directly with educators across the U.S., Pinedo argues that AI should not be treated as a technology problem but as an opportunity to rethink how schools prepare students for a rapidly changing world.

Together, Seth and Christian explore how AI became “real” for educators with the arrival of large language models, why concerns about cheating are really conversations about assessment design, and how meaningful change requires both grassroots engagement with teachers and broader policy shifts at the state level. The episode highlights the importance of human-centered thinking, deeper professional learning for teachers, and the role of AI as a catalyst for broader educational transformation.

Key Topics Discussed:

• How Christian Pinedo moved from classroom teaching to working at Stanford’s Institute for Human-Centered AI and eventually to AIEDU.
• Why large language models made AI suddenly real for educators after years of research and speculation.
• The concept of human-centered AI and why conversations about AI must include educators, policymakers, historians, and communities—not just technologists.
• Why teacher concerns about AI “cheating” are really conversations about assessment design in a digital world.
• The limits of focusing on AI tools instead of addressing deeper systemic challenges in education.
• AIEDU’s AI Readiness Framework, which outlines competencies for students, teachers, school leaders, and districts.
• Why sustainable education reform requires both grassroots engagement with teachers and grass-tops policy change at the state level.
• How AIEDU’s Teacher Trailblazers Fellowship creates deeper professional learning through multi-week, collaborative teacher cohorts.
• Real classroom projects emerging from the fellowship, including:
  • Indigenous students exploring data sovereignty and AI
  • Students using AI to build a platform encouraging voter registration in rural communities
• The difference between information and knowledge in the age of AI—and why friction in learning still matters.
• How international contexts change the conversation around AI in education, especially for English language learners and communities with different assumptions about privacy and data.

Guest Bio:

Christian Pinedo works with AIEDU to help schools and policymakers navigate the impact of artificial intelligence on education. A former classroom teacher, he previously worked at Stanford’s Institute for Human-Centered AI (HAI), where he explored how AI intersects with society, policy, and education. His work now focuses on helping educators and school systems develop the skills, frameworks, and policies needed to prepare students for a future shaped by AI.

Host Bio:

Seth Fleischauer is the founder of Banyan Global Learning and host of the Make It Mindful podcast. His work focuses on global learning, cultural competency, and the evolving role of technology in education. Through Banyan Global Learning, he develops live virtual learning experiences that connect students to people, places, and ideas around the world.

Episode Links:

• AIEDU: https://aiedu.org
• AIEDU Podcast – Raising Kids in the Age of AI
• Stanford Institute for Human-Centered AI (HAI) - https://hai.stanford.edu/
• World Savvy

Ryan Nuckolls-Rosa, Executive Director of Dramatic Results, joins Seth to talk about what it takes to build classrooms where students feel safe enough to create, collaborate, and think critically. They unpack “art scars,” why belonging is not a “nice-to-have,” and how arts integration and human-centered design can help students see themselves as problem-solvers early—especially in Title I contexts where time, space, and capacity are stretched thin.

Along the way, Ryan explains Dramatic Results’ ecosystem approach (artists + community experts), why real STEAM work often requires slowing down, and how long-term partnerships with teachers shift what’s possible in the classroom.

What this conversation gets into

At the center of Ryan’s work is a practical claim: students don’t reliably take creative risks until the room feels emotionally safe—and that safety is built through routines, shared agreements, and adult modeling, not slogans. Seth connects this to his own experience watching a teacher reframe his son’s “mess” as creativity, and to the podcast’s broader focus on wonderment (and awe) as a driver of intrinsic motivation.

Ryan also makes the case that design thinking (which Dramatic Results increasingly frames as human-centered design) isn’t just a student activity—it becomes an organizational operating system for identifying real needs, prototyping fast, and iterating without shame.

Time-stamped highlights

00:00 — Who Ryan is; what Dramatic Results does; what this episode is about
01:58 — Early experiences: growing up in Asheville, identity, and seeking “bigger” worlds
04:14 — What a step team is (and why Ryan joined one)
06:21 — The through-line: belonging, curiosity, and interdisciplinary learning
09:18 — “Art scars”: early shaming moments that shrink creativity
11:41 — The sequencing Ryan believes matters: communication → collaboration → creativity → critical thinking
14:15 — Seth’s story: the art class moment that rewired his parenting assumptions
17:39 — How Dramatic Results supports teachers: modeling, relationship-building, and right-sizing expectations
21:27 — Concrete classroom moves: agenda visibility, shared agreements, co-designing space, and the sacred check-in
24:20 — Seth hears Responsive Classroom; Ryan clarifies STEAM vs arts integration
25:43 — Why true STEAM is hard alone; the ecosystem model and community experts
29:44 — Design thinking as human-centered design; prototyping as an anti-shame practice
33:42 — Lightning round: what Ryan is rethinking (the power of a single moment)
35:46 — Ryan’s media recommendation: Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez
37:54 — Funding uncertainty: could disruption force reinvention?
41:01 — What Ryan hopes educators remember: one person can matter more than they think
42:49 — Where to find Dramatic Results + connect with Ryan

Mentions and references (from the conversation)

- Dramatic Results - https://dramaticresults.org/
- Power of Moments by Chip Heath
- Invisible Women: Data Bias in a World Designed for Men — Caroline Criado Perez
- Ryan Nuckolls-Rose on LinkedIn

Guest

Ryan Nuckolls-Rosa is the Executive Director of Dramatic Results, an arts education nonprofit based in Southern California. The organization partners with schools (often Title I), teaching artists, and community experts to build student belonging, collaboration, and creativity through arts integration, interdisciplinary learning, and human-centered design.

Host
Seth Fleischauer is the Founder of Banyan Global Learning—an international education company that designs and delivers live, interactive distance learning programs connecting students with new people, places, and ways of thinking.

In this short bonus episode, Host Seth Fleischauer reflects on a question sparked by a recent conversation with Stephanie Frenel of SchoolOps AI: why do schools so often default to quantitative data and shy away from qualitative insight?

Drawing on his own teaching experience and conversations with fellow educators, Seth explores how numbers feel safer, more objective, and easier to defend—while words require judgment, confidence, and accountability. He contrasts traditional grading systems with narrative assessments at The Earth School, where qualitative data demanded deeper observation and, ultimately, better teaching.

The episode makes a simple case for mixed methods and for reclaiming qualitative data as a rigorous, human-centered tool—especially in a system that often asks teachers to hide behind numbers.

School leaders are drowning in data—test scores, surveys, observations, behavior reports—but starving for insight.

In this episode of Make It Mindful, Seth Fleischauer is joined by Stephanie Frenel, founder and CEO of SchoolOps AI, for a deep conversation about what it actually takes to make sense of complexity in schools—and how AI can support that work without stripping out the human judgment that matters most.

Stephanie brings a rare combination of experience to this conversation: former principal, instructional coach, systems-level leader, and now founder working at the intersection of school leadership and artificial intelligence. Drawing on her work at Fair Schools, Rocketship Public Schools, and Shusterman Family Philanthropies, she shares why mixed-methods data—quantitative and qualitative—is essential for understanding what’s really happening inside a school.

Together, Seth and Stephanie explore how principals can move beyond dashboards and compliance metrics toward tools that surface root causes, support collaborative decision-making, and reduce operational burden—freeing leaders to spend more time with students, families, and teachers.

This conversation is not about AI replacing educators. It’s about AI working quietly in the background to help schools become more coherent, more humane, and more responsive.

In This Episode, We Discuss

• Why school leaders are overwhelmed by data—but still lack actionable insight
• The limits of purely quantitative metrics in understanding student learning and school culture
• How qualitative data (observations, interviews, rubrics) can be analyzed responsibly at scale
• What “mixed-methods” analysis looks like in real school improvement work
• How SchoolOps AI integrates academic, behavioral, and social-emotional data without compromising privacy
• FERPA compliance, data security, and why AI shouldn’t retain student-level memory
• The role of AI as a collaborative tool for principals, coaches, and teacher teams
• Why coaching remains essential—and how AI can support, not replace, human relationships
• What meaningful impact looks like beyond test scores
• A case study where triangulated data revealed student agency—not academics—as the real lever for change

About the Guest

Stephanie Frenel is the founder and CEO of SchoolOps AI, a platform designed to help school leaders make sense of complex data systems through research-backed, human-centered insights.

She is a Pahara Institute Fellow and former Teach For America corps member, with degrees from Georgetown University and Stanford University. Her career spans teaching, instructional coaching, school leadership, and system-level philanthropy, including leadership roles at Fair Schools, Rocketship Public Schools, and Shusterman Family Philanthropies.

Recommended Listening

Stephanie recommends:

• The Knowledge Project
• The Diary of a CEO

Links & Resources

• SchoolOps AI: https://schoolops.ai
• Stephanie Frenel on LinkedIn
• Make It Mindful #26 Navigating Change and Ambiguity with World Savvy
• World Savvy - Building future-ready schools
• Pahara Institute - Developmental opportunities for education

Host Bio

Seth Fleischauer is the founder and president of Banyan Global Learning, an international education organization delivering experiential and distance learning programs that build global competency. A former classroom teacher, Seth explores how mindful innovation—across psychology, technology, and global learning—can strengthen education systems and support the wellbeing of young people.

Credits

Hosted, written, and produced by Seth Fleischauer
Edited by Lucas Salazar

In this episode, Seth speaks with Valérie Besanceney, an international educator, author, former Executive Director of Safe Passage Across Networks (SPAN), and current International Advisor on Transitions, Care, and Mobility Services for the Council of International Schools (CIS). Her work focuses on helping globally mobile students—and the educators and institutions that support them—navigate transitions with clarity, care, and a grounded sense of belonging.

The conversation traces Valérie’s journey as a third culture kid, her early ease with adapting to new environments, and the later reckoning with identity, rootlessness, and belonging that many cross-cultural students eventually face. She describes how those experiences shaped her writing, her consulting practice Roots with Boots, and her broader mission to ensure schools understand that belonging is not a destination but a lifelong practice.

Together, Seth and Valérie explore:

• Identity formation as a prerequisite for genuine belonging
• The distinction between belonging and fitting in, and why the latter often demands self-abandonment
• How cross-cultural mobility affects learning, confidence, and relationships
• Why help-seeking is an essential skill for all students—not only those who move between countries
• The systems-level work required for schools to create coherent, sustainable transitions-care programs
• The role of teachers, counselors, admissions teams, parents, and students in building cultures of care
• How intentional schoolwide practices can transform mobility from an isolating experience into one that strengthens self-knowledge and global competence

Valérie also discusses her children’s book B at Home: Emma Moves Again and the companion My Moving Booklet, both designed to help young people name emotions, anticipate challenges, and talk openly with adults during relocation. Her core message: even in difficult transitions, you are not alone, and conversation—grounded in honesty and curiosity—is a powerful tool for resilience.

A brief lightning round touches on linguistics in the age of AI, books that challenge us to seek out differing perspectives, and the value of connection during personal hardship.

Books Mentioned

• Third Culture Kids: Growing Up Among Worlds by David Pollock, Michael Pollock, & Ruth Van Reken
• Seek: How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World by Scott Shigeoka
• Belonging by Owen Eastwood
• Demon Copperhead by Barbara Kingsolver

Guest Links

• Valérie’s work: https://rootswithboots.com