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This week Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by author Bill Buford to round up their series on hooliganism.

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this second part of our two-part special on football hooliganism, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper trace the roots of football violence from the 1890s through to its transformation into organised ‘firms’ in the 1960s, 70s and 80s. They discuss the origins of the word ‘hooligan’, early crowd disorder and FA crackdowns, and how post-war prosperity, youth subcultures, away travel and ‘taking ends’ helped create a new kind of fan conflict. The episode also covers the European and England-team flashpoints of the 1970s and 80s, the political and policing response to the Popplewell Report, with later links to post-Hillsborough reforms and why large-scale hooliganism declined.

You can listen to this episode ad-free over on our Patreon - Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was. You will also get access to our World Cup countdown, magazine retrospectives and bonus episodes as well as a monthly Q&A with Rob and Jonathan.

01:39 Where the Word ‘Hooligan’ Comes From (1890s London)

04:03 Football Fever: Mass Crowds and Class Anxiety

12:17 What Early ‘Hooliganism’ Looked Like: Pitch Invasions & Crowd Control

17:43 Players Under Attack

20:25 Fan-on-Fan Violence Emerges & the Rise of Away Travel

22:08 Cup Finals, ‘Football Specials’ & Patronising Press Panic

27:27 Post-War: The 60s–70s Gangs Are Coming

29:02 Teddy Boys, Rock ’n’ Roll Panics & Mods vs Rockers

31:02 Merseyside: Away Travel & the Rise of Chanting

36:53 Taking Ends: Territory, Undercover Trouble & the New ‘Game’

41:58 Europe & England Abroad: From Paris 1975 to Euro 1980

44:00 1980s Casuals, Designer Gear & Firms Arranging Fights

48:43 1985: Luton–Millwall, Heysel, Thatcher & the Popplewell Report

51:28 Aftermath: CCTV, ID Schemes & Taylor Report

53:50 Global Legacy: Ultras, Copycat Firms & Why Football Identity Endures

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this first part of a two-part special on football hooliganism, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by special guest Cass Pennant - former West Ham United Inter City Firm member who later became an author and film producer. They discuss director Ian Stuttard (known as “Butch”) and his 1985 groundbreaking documentary 'Hooligan', which challenged the stereotype of hooligans. Cass explains how Stuttard earned access by spending months with the ICF without a camera, building trust, and later filming from inside the action. The episode also covers the Thatcher-era context, the film’s controversial release and its wider impact on how 'firms' were understood. We finish the episode with Cass reflecting on Stuttard’s wider documentary career, their later partnership in a production company, and Stuttard’s lasting legacy. Join us next week for the history of football hooliganism.

You can listen to this episode ad-free over on our Patreon - Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was. You will also get access to our World Cup countdown, magazine retrospectives and bonus episodes as well as a monthly Q&A with Rob and Jonathan.

00:38 Introducing Cass Pennant and the Documentary

03:21 How Ian Stuttard Got Access to the ICF

11:08 Trust Test: A Year With No Camera

15:28 1985 Context: Thatcher’s Britain, Youth Culture, and Misread ‘Casuals’

24:19 Inside the Footage: Street Fighting, Early Video Cameras, and Codes of Conduct

26:23 Butch’s War-Correspondent Mindset

33:22 Back in the Studio: How ‘Hooligan’ Got Its Unfiltered Authenticity

34:02 Pre-Broadcast Panic: Calls to Ban the Film & Fears of Copycats

40:18 From Gangs to ‘Firms’

45:33 Inside Whitehall: Giving Evidence to the Popplewell Inquiry

54:59 Why It Faded: Fans Wanting Out, Politics, Policing & the Premier League Era

58:42 Stuttard's Legacy: Funeral Reflections, Final Bucket List Match & Lasting Impact

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