In this conversation, Jason brings Steven into the conversation to explore spiritual formation through the lenses of experimentation, habit formation, adaptive leadership, evangelism, and the long arc of becoming more like God. Steven shares how trying new practices—and even failing at them—has reshaped his prayer life, reduced anxiety, and opened space for genuine transformation. Jason reflects on spiritual formation as a lifelong journey rather than a single conversion moment, drawing from campus ministry, the Engel scale, and Eastern Orthodox ideas of theosis. Together they offer a refreshing, grace-filled vision of spiritual growth rooted in curiosity, patience, and the Spirit’s ongoing work in every person.

Key Ideas Discussed

• Experimentation as spiritual practice: Spiritual disciplines become transformative when approached as experiments—try something, reflect, adjust, try again.
• Moving beyond “I should” spirituality: Steven describes shifting from obligation-driven disciplines to practices that shape his inner life.
• Adaptive leadership and spiritual growth: Borrowing from Heifetz, Steven frames spiritual formation as iterative learning rather than static performance.
• Habit formation and spiritual maturity: How routines, triggers, rewards, and intentional practices can reshape thinking, behavior, and relationships.
• Anxiety and spiritual habits Steven: shares his Lenten practice of “giving up worrying about tomorrow” and how Scripture became a trigger for peace.
• Evangelism as spiritual formation: Jason reframes evangelism as helping people take the next step in their journey, not rushing them to baptism.
• The Engel scale and patient discipleship: People begin at different places; spiritual formation honors their starting point.
• Theosis and becoming Godlike: Jason reflects on Eastern Orthodox ideas of becoming like God and how they challenge perfectionism.
• Failure as a spiritual teacher: Both discuss how failure opens pathways to growth that success alone cannot.

Resources Mentioned

• Ronald Heifetz – Adaptive Leadership (referenced conceptually)
• Charles Duhigg – The Power of Habit
• James Clear – Atomic Habits (mentioned indirectly as “a lot of people have read”)
• Dallas Willard – writings on spiritual disciplines
• Richard Foster – writings on spiritual disciplines
• Engel Scale of Evangelism
• Eastern Orthodox theology – Theosis
• Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 6–7) – “Do not worry about tomorrow” and “Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect”
• Ted Lasso – quote attributed to Mark Twain: “Continuous improvement is better than delayed perfection.”

EPISODE DESCRIPTION

What does it really feel like to be a woman serving in ministry today? In this conversation, Becky Burroughs—minister, coach, mentor, and longtime leader—opens up about the challenges, hopes, and realities women face in church leadership. Drawing from decades of experience and countless coaching conversations, Becky names the themes she hears again and again: the longing for community, the struggle for respect, the tension between giftedness and policy, and the deep desire to serve faithfully in environments that don’t always know how to support them. With honesty, humor, and wisdom, Becky invites listeners to consider what healthy leadership looks like—for women, for men, and for the church as a whole.

GUEST BIO

Becky Burroughs spent most of her life setting high expectations, driving herself into the ground, denying her feelings, and hiding her fears. It took a series of traumatic events, and a full-blown identity crisis, for her to discover her true identity and to love herself as God loves her, unconditionally.

Becky has served in a variety of leadership positions for 40+ years, as a small business owner, a leader in the non-profit world, and for the past 18 years, a full-time minister at the Highland Oaks Church of Christ in Dallas, where she has held a variety of positions: Administration Minister, Children’s Minister, Executive Minister, and now, Outreach Minister.

Always a champion for others, Becky is now a certified Life/Leadership Coach for Christian women, a speaker, and author, encouraging and empowering women to find their true identity, know their worth, and use their voice.

When she is not with her 20 grandchildren, she can be found jumping out of perfectly good planes or traveling the world.

You can connect with Becky via her coaching websites Becky Burroughs Coaching and Leadership Bootcamp for Women in Ministry. She also hosts the podcast Leadership Becomes Her.

EPISODE DESCRIPTION

What happens to a church when the quietest voices finally get heard? In this conversation, Kaley Ihfe explores the transformative power of listening—especially to those who rarely speak up. Drawing from family dynamics, church leadership, Broadway Church of Christ’s journey of expanding women’s roles, and her work with Lavish Hope, Kaley reflects on why intentional hearing matters for relationships, ministry, and the health of the body of Christ. She shares stories of overlooked giftedness, the beauty and pain uncovered through listening sessions, and the deep impact of creating space for ministers’ wives to be seen. Grounded in the example of Jesus, who consistently noticed those on the margins, this episode invites leaders to slow down, pay attention, and cultivate a community where every voice is valued.

GUEST BIO

Kaley Ihfe serves as the Director of Lavish HOPE ministries. She has a B.S. in Communications, an MEd in School Counseling, and an MA in Christian Ministry and is certified in the Enneagram Spectrum Training through Dr. Jerry Wagner. She has had a variety of jobs - all people oriented: at the Volunteer Center of Lubbock, in Pflugerville ISD, and at Abilene Christian University. She has served alongside her husband, Karl Ihfe, in ministry for 26 years first in Austin and currently in Lubbock. Kaley is passionate about teaching scripture and being an active part of her community. She teaches adult Bible classes, writes Bible study curriculum, and speaks at retreats. She and Karl have a son in graduate school at Wichita State University and a daughter at Lipscomb. You can email Kaley at Kaley@lavishhope.org or catch her on Instagram @lavishhope.hn

Heart of the Conversation

This conversation is about hearing the unheard—the quiet voices in families, churches, and ministries whose gifts, perspectives, and experiences often go unnoticed. Kaley Ihfe shares her experiences with how intentional listening builds genuine relationships, strengthens congregational life, empowers overlooked members, and aligns with the way of Jesus, who consistently paid attention to those on the margins.

Key ideas discussed include

• Listening to quiet voices Kaley describes how in family gatherings, some people naturally dominate conversation while others need intentional invitation. She connects this dynamic to church life, where quieter members often hold valuable perspectives.

• Theological grounding for hearing others She emphasizes Paul’s teaching that every member of the body has gifts, and ignoring quieter voices means losing essential contributions.

• Leadership that empowers Churches thrive when leaders create structures that invite participation, broaden who gets asked to serve, and intentionally listen to diverse voices.

• The impact of listening during change Kaley shares insights from Broadway’s process of expanding women’s roles, including both gratitude and pain expressed during interviews and listening sessions.

• Lavish Hope and ministers’ wives She explains how ministers’ wives often feel unseen, and how Lavish Hope provides space for them to be known, valued, and supported.

• Jesus’ example Kaley highlights how Jesus surrounded himself with diverse people and consistently paid attention to those on the margins—an example the church must emulate.

Resources

• Oneness in Christ: A Qualitative Study of Women’s Initial Oneness in Christ: A Qualitative Study of Women’s Initial Experiences Leading in Public Worship at Broadway Church of Experiences Leading in Public Worship at Broadway Church of Christ (2021)

• A Oneness Study Story: The Experiences of Elders and Staff in A Oneness Study Story: The Experiences of Elders and Staff in Leading Change for the Inclusion of Women in Public Worship Leading Change for the Inclusion of Women in Public Worship Roles (2022)