Dr. Ben Skutnik, PhD, CSCS*D, NSCA-CPT*D, is an Assistant Professor of Kinesiology and Human Performance Lab Director at Butler University and Head of Nutrition Coaching at Power Athlete.

Dr. Ben Skutnik joins the show to separate fact from fad in aerobic training, debunking zone 2 hype and explaining why VO2 max matters but isn't everything.

Expect to learn why reading scientific literature is its own skill, how uncontrolled variables quietly derail hypertrophy and menstrual-cycle training research, why treating people as fragile backfires, why anecdote in human performance often outruns the research, how "closing the loop" with clients beats chasing mechanisms, what the Norwegian 4x4 method gets right (and what most zone 2 research gets wrong about training zones), and how to actually build VO2 max with the critical power model, and much more.

Connect with Ben:

• Power Athlete Coach Bio
• LinkedIn
• Google Scholar

Episodes you'll enjoy next:

• #400 — Build Aerobic Fitness Before Mitochondrial Peptides: AMPK, VO2 Max & Recovery — Dr. Dwayne Jackson: Listen here
• #374 — Zone 2 Cardio: What the Science Really Says (Pros, Cons & Better Options) with Kristi Storoschuk: Listen here

Episode Timestamps:

• 1:46 — Why Ben was recommended for this conversation on cardiovascular and aerobic programming
• 7:31 — Reading scientific literature is a skill set of its own
• 14:05 — Hypertrophy training to failure and uncontrolled variables in research
• 16:27 — Debunking myths about training around the menstrual cycle
• 18:20 — Human resilience and the danger of treating people as fragile
• 22:09 — Why consistency beats trying to "hack" optimization
• 22:40 — Nutrition fear-mongering and overly restrictive diets
• 27:25 — Changing one variable at a time vs. the "kitchen sink" approach
• 29:55 — Why anecdotal evidence in human performance is often ahead of the research
• 34:48 — The ethics of placebo and "closing the loop" with clients
• 37:34 — The psychology of performance: the NFL kicker example
• 43:13 — The Norwegian 4x4 method and zone 2 training myths
• 46:40 — Why most zone 2 research relies on the wrong zone model
• 52:53 — HYROX, CrossFit, and Goodhart's Law in training
• 1:05:18 — Is VO2 max overrated? Performance vs. health tradeoffs
• 1:15:25 — Building VO2 max: interval protocols and the critical power model
• 1:26:02 — Life-changing results: taking deconditioned clients from VO2 max 18 to 35
• 1:30:09 — Where to find Ben Skutnik and his work at Butler University and Power Athlete

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Rick Alexander is a depth-psychological counselor, psychedelic practitioner, and interfaith spiritual care provider currently completing his Ph.D. in Mythology/Depth Psychology and a former Naval Special Operations combat medic.

Rick was a Special Operations combat medic until a single psychedelic experience shattered his worldview and sent him back to school to study psychedelic spiritual care. He and Dr. Mike dig into neuroplasticity windows, why “good trip/bad trip” is the wrong question, and what may really be happening in DMT space.

Expect to learn how a rough teenage salvia trip and a later psilocybin experience redirected Rick's entire career, what life is really like as a Special Operations Combat Medic supporting SEALs and Green Berets, why military training narrows emotional range and makes civilian re-entry so hard, how integration (not the trip itself) determines whether a psychedelic experience heals or destabilizes you, what the "third wave" of psychedelic science gets right that the DSM's "hallucinogen" label gets wrong, whether neuroplastic windows could help athletes learn skills faster, and what a brutal 5-MeO-DMT experience taught Rick about his own running form and breathing.

Connect with Rick:

• Website
• Instagram

Episodes you'll enjoy next:

• #47 — Tools to Down-Regulate in Response to Stress (an earlier conversation with Rick Alexander): Listen here
• #194 — The Pros and Cons of Psychedelic Compounds with Psychedelic Researcher Rebekah Senanayake: Listen here

Episode Timestamps:

• 2:49 – Rick's PhD progress and the psychedelic experience that redirected his career
• 3:38 – A rough first psychedelic experience with salvia at 18
• 4:46 – The psilocybin experience that "peeled back" his worldview
• 7:00 – Life as a Special Operations Combat Medic supporting SEALs and Green Berets
• 8:23 – How military training narrows emotional range and worldview
• 10:01 – Why veterans struggle to re-enter civilian life after specialized training
• 13:34 – The double-edged sword: psychedelics can destabilize as easily as they heal
• 14:32 – The "third wave" of psychedelic science and the flawed DSM "hallucinogen" label
• 23:49 – Integration: do you have time to process what comes up?
• 24:43 – "Psychedelic myth-making" and building a new personal mythology
• 31:05 – Could neuroplastic windows help athletes learn skills faster?
• 37:01 – Yogic energy channels (nadis) and psychedelics amplifying subtle perception
• 39:17 – How a brutal 5-MeO-DMT trip changed Rick's running form and breathing
• 56:16 – What's really happening in DMT space: Strassman, Gallimore, and "reality switch technologies"
• 59:43 – Henri Corbin's "psycho-cosmology": consciousness and reality as mirrored levels
• 1:06:45 – "Functional consequentialism": why you shouldn't dismiss someone else's experience
• 1:10:46 – Where to find Rick and his counseling and breathwork work

Get the Daily Fitness Insider newsletter (free): https://www.miketnelson.com/newsletter

Dr. Dwayne Jackson is a health specialist, medical educator, scientist, and entrepreneur with a PhD in neurovascular physiology.

Mitochondrial peptides may be promising, but they cannot replace the aerobic base that makes their effects measurable. Dr. Dwayne Jackson explains AMPK and mitochondrial signaling, what MOTS-c and SS-31 can and cannot tell us, and why fitness data, training, and recovery come before any experimental compound.

Expect to learn how aerobic fitness supports strength and Strongman training, why lactate clearance and conditioning can become the rate limiter, what AMPK and mTOR signal, how kidney disease changed Dwayne’s perspective on aerobic capacity, where the evidence for MOTS-c and SS-31 is limited, how to design a more useful N-of-1 experiment, and why training, nutrition, recovery, COAs, and third-party testing come before experimental compounds.

Connect with Dwayne:

• Website: drdwaynejackson.com
• Google Scholar

Episodes you’ll enjoy next:

• #396 — Are Your Peptides Illegal? — Rick Collins: A practical look at peptide science, regulation, and the gray market.
• #393 — From Powerlifter to Trail Runner — Paul Oneid & Cody Miller: VO2 max, cardiac adaptations, and the transition from strength sports to endurance.

Episode Timestamps:

• 01:53 — Mitochondrial peptides and the aerobic-training foundation
• 03:19 — Peptides as training amplifiers, not replacements
• 04:22 — AMPK, mTOR and mitochondrial signaling
• 05:50 — Why aerobic fitness supports strength and Strongman training
• 08:12 — Conditioning, lactate clearance and the rate limiter for strength athletes
• 10:58 — Wingate tests and overlapping energy systems
• 15:12 — Kidney disease, mitochondrial dysfunction and aerobic collapse
• 21:22 — Hypertensive crisis, dialysis and recognizing a major fitness decline
• 24:48 — Kidney transplant recovery and rebuilding aerobic capacity
• 28:27 — The evidence and limitations behind mitochondrial peptides
• 34:55 — MOTS-c, AMPK activation and anecdotal HIIT performance
• 39:59 — SS-31, cardiolipin and mitochondrial efficiency
• 48:32 — Why training, nutrition and recovery come before peptides
• 58:40 — Using performance data to make an N-of-1 experiment more useful
• 1:01:22 — SS-31 before training, AMPK timing and recovery trade-offs
• 1:06:07 — SLU-PP-332, exercise mimetics and the gap in human data
• 1:09:17 — Peptide sourcing, COAs and third-party testing
• 1:12:02 — Genetics, response variability and sustainable performance

Get the Daily Fitness Insider newsletter (free): https://www.miketnelson.com/newsletter