In part two, the conversation turns to artificial intelligence and its impact on higher education. Kate shares her experiences teaching during the rapid rise of AI tools and discusses the challenges they create for assessment, academic integrity, and course design.

The discussion also explores how educators can respond by designing meaningful learning experiences that emphasize collaboration, critical thinking, and real-world problem solving.

In part one of this conversation, Dr. Kate Zatz shares the personal story that shaped her commitment to students and higher education. From her journey as a first-generation college student to her leadership roles across multiple institutions, Kate reflects on mentorship, student involvement, and the importance of belonging in higher education.

She also discusses her decades of work with the Girl Scouts and why leadership development and community support matter more than ever for young people today.

What can leaders learn from the natural world?

In this episode of the Engaged By Design Podcast, Michael Cottam and Vernon Smith continue their conversation with Dr. Kathy Hagler and Robin Graham, co-authors of The ABCs of Murmuration: Collective Wisdom of Nature.

Building on the concept of Flock Logic, the conversation explores how leaders and organizations can adapt, move together, and learn from the rhythms of nature.

Kathy and Robin introduce the idea of “walking in a new way” — shifting how we think about leadership, collaboration, and innovation. Through stories, research, and practical insights, they show how collective movement, shared rhythm, and distributed leadership can help organizations navigate complexity and change.

If you work in education, leadership, or organizational development, this episode will challenge you to rethink how groups move, learn, and evolve together.

Extended Show Notes

Nature offers powerful lessons for leadership — especially when we observe how complex systems move and adapt together.

In this episode, Michael and Vernon welcome back Dr. Kathy Hagler and Robin Graham, authors of The ABCs of Murmuration: Collective Wisdom of Nature. Their work explores how patterns found in nature — particularly bird murmurations — reveal powerful insights about collaboration, adaptability, and collective intelligence.

During the conversation, they explore:

• What murmuration can teach us about collective leadership
• The concept of Flock Logic and shared rhythm in organizations
• Why leadership today requires movement rather than control
• How organizations can adapt by “walking in a new way”
• The power of distributed leadership and emergent collaboration
• Lessons from nature that apply to education, innovation, and change

Rather than relying on rigid hierarchies, effective organizations learn to move like living systems — sensing, adapting, and responding together.

For leaders navigating uncertainty, these ideas provide a fresh lens for understanding how people and organizations can thrive in complex environments.