“I asked everyone if they were lonely. All the guys my age said 'no, I'm too busy; too much going on.' When I answer that quickly I'm either lying or it's something I'm afraid of.” – Andrew McCarthy

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Andrew talk about why Andrew took a USA road trip to reconnect with his friends (2:15); what kinds of friends Andrew sought out, why none of them were public figures, and how loneliness is bad for men's health (8:00); the kinds of men Andrew spoke with in passing on the trip, why Andrew sought out Elvis Presley sites on the road, and how women's friendships differ from men's (17:30); Andrew's takeaways from his road trip, why "showing up" for people is important, and how travel can be the "university of life" (28:00); audience questions about friendships between younger men, the rumored possibility of a St. Elmo's Fire sequel, the task of recording an audiobook, creepy things that happened on the road, and how travel inevitably makes us more open and curious (35:30).

Andrew McCarthy (@AndrewTMcCarthy) is an actor, television director and writer of such books as The Longest Way Home, Brat and Walking with Sam. His newest book is Who Needs Friends: An Unscientific Examination of Male Friendship Across America.

Notable Links:

• Tips for telling travel stories, with Andrew McCarthy (Deviate episode)
• Paris Writing Workshops (summer learning-vacation classes)
• Travels with Charley in Search of America, by John Steinbeck (book)
• Brat Pack (group of young 1980s actors)
• Elvis Presley Birthplace (museum site in Tupelo, Mississippi)
• Camps Promising to Turn You into an Alpha Male (article)
• Comstock, Texas (incorporated community)
• Joshua Speed (close friend of Abraham Lincoln)
• St. Elmo's Fire (1985 movie)
• Geoff Dyer (English author and travel writer)
• Strawberry Hill (neighborhood in Kansas City, Kansas)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

"I think you have to pick your battles when you're collaborating with people." – Kim Krizan

Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin.

Notable Links:

• Kim Krizan on the philosophy of Before Sunrise (YouTube video)
• Screenwriting in Paris class, with Kim Krizan (creative writing class)
• Paris Writing Workshops (summer learning-vacation classes)
• Before Sunrise (1995 movie)
• Ethan Hawke (American actor and director)
• Julie Delpy (French actress and director)
• Richard Linklater (American filmmaker)
• Slacker (1990 film)
• Dazed and Confused (1993 film)
• Anaïs Nin (French-American diarist and novelist)
• Reality Bites (1994 movie)
• Robin Wright (American actress)
• Lili Taylor (American actress)
• The Prater (public park in Vienna)
• Waking Life (2001 film)
• Forrest Mallard editing and marketing services
• Kansas Never Plays Itself (video essay by Rolf Potts)

“I wish I loved sports, and particularly football, a lot less than I do. It consumes too much of my memory and too much of my time.” – Chuck Klosterman

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf talks about why he's talking to Chuck Klosterman's former roommate Michael Weinreb about Chuck's book Football, rather than Chuck himself (2:00); football-themed video games, and the difference between emotional and analytical sports fandom (7:00); Pico Iyer's appearance in the movie Marty Supreme, how podcasting has changed the landscape, and how streaming video has become the standard way to watch even high school football (17:00); why going to football games in person is a "pagan" experience of games that is completely different than watching them on TV, and how there's a travel parallel in experiencing distant places in person (24:00); how important the season and the weather is to the experience of football at both the experiential and metaphorical level (32:00); what might become of football, and why it persists as the object of fandom even by people who've never played it (39:00).

Michael Weinreb (@MichaelWeinreb) is the author of three sports books, including Game of Kings; Bigger Than the Game; and Season of Saturdays. He has been a contributing writer for ESPN, The New York Times, Grantland, Rolling Stone, The Athletic, and The Ringer. His Substack newsletter is called Throwbacks: A Newsletter About Sports History and Culture.

Notable Links:

• Kicking & Screaming might be the best movie ever (Deviate episode)
• Back to Penn State (2011 This American Life episode)
• Chuck Klosterman (author and essayist)
• Fargo Rock City, by Chuck Klosterman (2001 book)
• EA Sports College Football (video game)
• Super Bowl LV (game the Chiefs lost to the Buccaneers)
• Super Bowl LIX (game the Chiefs lost to the Eagles)
• A travel writers’ Super Bowl special (Deviate episode)
• Pico Iyer (travel writer and novelist)
• Marty Supreme (2025 sports comedy-drama film)
• Chick Hearn (Los Angeles Lakers announcer)
• Wesley Morris on Deviate
• Bill Simmons (American sportswriter and cultural critic)
• Football History Deep Dive (Bill Simmons Podcast episode)
• 2025 Kansas 1A football championship (high school game video)