#13 Stars from Les Mis: The Beauty and Tragedy of Absolute Certainty: Spiral Dynamics Blue Stage CHAPTER 1

What if the rules you built your entire life around suddenly stopped making sense?

In this episode of Deep Play, we explore one of musical theatre’s most powerful portraits of moral certainty: “Stars” from Les Misérables.

Inspector Javert looks into the night sky and sees more than stars. He sees a universe governed by order—everything in its proper place, everything following an eternal law. To Javert, justice isn’t merely a preference or a social convention. It is woven into the fabric of reality. It simply is.

That makes “Stars” a remarkable expression of the Blue stage of Spiral Dynamics.

Through Victor Hugo’s masterpiece, Les Misérables, the phenomenal musical that sprang out of it over 100 years later, and Philip Quast’s iconic portrayal of Javert, we explore the beauty of a worldview built around duty, discipline, loyalty, integrity, moral conviction, and devotion to something greater than oneself.

But the real story of Les Misérables is that it shines a spotlight on what happens when such virtues become dogmatic and rigid.

Javert encounters something his worldview cannot easily explain: a man he considers a criminal repeatedly demonstrating compassion, sacrifice, and mercy. Eventually, Jean Valjean doesn’t defeat Javert through greater power. He confronts him with a reality that doesn’t fit inside his rigid blue-stage moral categories.

And that creates a fascinating developmental question for all of us:

What happens when life becomes bigger than the worldview we have used to make sense of it?

“Stars” gives us Blue at its most beautiful—and Javert’s story shows us the tragedy that can occur when certainty leaves no room for complexity, grace, or transformation.

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The official Deep Play Podcast playlist with all the songs we’ve used to illustrate the concepts we've covered for expansive living can be found here:⁠ ⁠https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4VwZiaenSdnrd7nKO25oiy?si=2b064de6b08a43c5⁠⁠

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#12 Learning to Follow the Rules: Spiral Dynamics Blue Stage INTRO

What happens when raw power, strongmen, and gangster loyalty isn’t enough to hold a civilization together?

In this episode of Deep Play, we explore the Blue stage of Spiral Dynamics—the developmental shift toward order, duty, morality, discipline, and belief in something greater than the power of the individual.

Blue emerges as an answer to the chaos of Red. Instead of “I do what I want,” Blue asks, “What is the right thing to do?” Humanity begins organizing itself around laws, moral codes, authoritarian structures, enduring institutions, sacred traditions, and shared ideas about good and evil.

Blue’s contribution to humanity is enormous. It teaches us to control our impulses, keep our promises, sacrifice for others, honor commitments, accept responsibility, and build institutions capable of lasting for generations. Courts, schools, religious communities, marriage vows, military service, and many of the core foundations of civilization are built on a blue. Even today, blue structures act as the skeleton, bearing the weight of modern civilization and keeping it in form.

But every stage casts a shadow. Moral certainty can become dogmatism. Loyalty can become tribalism. Obedience can become conformity. And belief in absolute truth can divide the world into the righteous and the wicked. Us vs them.

Ethnocentrism is the shadow. We are right. And everyone else is wrong.

Rather than simply celebrating or rejecting Blue, we’ll play with a more interesting question: Which parts of blue are still healthy to keep in 2026 and which parts should be tossed on the heap like the smoldering toxic sludge that it is?

The answer is not black and white. It's the curious process of transcending and including.

Deep Play Pod details:

If this episode resonates with you, you can help keep the podcast accessible to everyone by following, supporting, and sharing the show on Patreon:⁠ ⁠https://www.patreon.com/c/DeepPlay⁠⁠

The official Deep Play Podcast playlist with all the songs we’ve used to illustrate the concepts we've covered for expansive living can be found here:⁠ ⁠https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4VwZiaenSdnrd7nKO25oiy?si=2b064de6b08a43c5⁠⁠

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#11 Claiming and Taming the Dragon: Reclaiming Power Without Losing Yourself: Spiral Dynamics Red Stage CHAPTERS 5-7

Is egoic power something we overcome, or something we own and integrate?

In this episode of Deep Play, we put the Red stage of the Spiral dynamics framework under the microscope, separating what Spiral Dynamics claims from what science can actually support. Research gives us plenty of evidence for the ingredients associated with Red, including ego development, dominance, aggression, bullying, status-seeking, competition, hierarchy, impulsivity, and threat response. But the neat package we call “Red” in these series of episodes remains an individual developmental category rather than an established scientific stage of collective human development. Still, it provides an incredibly useful lens for understanding human history, and the cultural evolution of our species, where most early and even some modern civilizations have operated with attributes from this stage.

We also venture into modern pockets of society where we still see red stage attributes. As one example, we examine the Red Pill movement, asking why messages about strength, status, masculinity, self-improvement, and sexual power have become so attractive to some men. Beneath its darker expressions may be legitimate needs for agency, confidence, belonging, competence, and self-respect, even as those needs can curdle into resentment, misogyny, domination, and relationships reduced to contests for power.

Then we reconstruct Red.

Maybe anger isn't something to be ashamed of. Maybe boundaries aren't selfish. Maybe compassion without self-respect can become submission, forgiveness can become avoidance, and service can become self-erasure. Healthy Red teaches something deceptively simple: I matter too.

The goal isn't to eradicate the dragon. It's to tame it.

To become strong without needing to dominate. Loving without disappearing. Assertive without becoming cruel. And powerful enough that we no longer need to prove our power.

Because an integrated life has room for both the warrior and the lover, and perhaps the mature version of Red is simply this:

My voice matters. My needs matter. My life matters. And yours does too.

Deep Play Pod details:

If this episode resonates with you, you can help keep the podcast accessible to everyone by following, supporting, and sharing the show on Patreon:⁠ ⁠https://www.patreon.com/c/DeepPlay⁠⁠

The official Deep Play Podcast playlist with all the songs we’ve used to illustrate the concepts we've covered for expansive living can be found here:⁠ ⁠https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4VwZiaenSdnrd7nKO25oiy?si=2b064de6b08a43c5⁠⁠

Send us your thoughts and comments: ⁠deepplaypod@gmail.com

#10 Power Unleashed: Integrating Our Inner Warrior: Spiral Dynamics Red Stage CHAPTER 4

In this episode of Deep Play, we continue exploring the Red Stage of the Spiral Dynamics framework of human development and evolution. In this chapter we explore the emergence of personal power, ego, courage, rebellion, ambition, and the raw human desire to take control of one's own destiny. And we do it with stories from history, music, movies, scriptures and more.

The red stage, or emergence of ego typically begins early in childhood as we discover that we have a will of our own. For a meaningful chunk of human history this stage of development dictated how many precivilization societies operated. It helped transform early tribal societies into larger cities and the first of the world's precivilizations as tribes gave way to warriors, chiefs, kings, conquerors, and empires.

We journey from Alexander the Great and Genghis Khan to the warrior God of the Old Testament and the battles of the Book of Mormon, exploring why stories of conquest, vengeance, courage, and heroic power have captivated humanity for thousands of years. We also look at Red in the modern world through athletes, entrepreneurs, fighters, political leaders, movies like Gladiator and Braveheart, and the cultural fascination with people who still refuse to ask permission, and instead take what they want.

Red ego has two faces. Unrestrained, it becomes domination, intimidation, exploitation, violence, and “might makes right.” Integrated well, it gives us something essential: confidence, boundaries, courage, self-respect, healthy aggression, and the ability to act decisively when something matters.

Ultimately, this episode asks a more personal question: Can we reclaim our power without becoming controlled by it?

Because growing beyond egoic Red doesn't mean killing the warrior inside us. It means learning when to let the warrior carry the sword, and when to put it down.

Deep Play Pod details:

If this episode resonates with you, you can help keep the podcast accessible to everyone by following, supporting, and sharing the show on Patreon:⁠ ⁠https://www.patreon.com/c/DeepPlay⁠⁠

The official Deep Play Podcast playlist with all the songs we’ve used to illustrate the concepts we've covered for expansive living can be found here:⁠ ⁠https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4VwZiaenSdnrd7nKO25oiy?si=2b064de6b08a43c5⁠⁠

Send us your thoughts and comments: ⁠deepplaypod@gmail.com

#9 Learning Not to Kneel: Reclaiming the Power I Never Developed as a Kid: Spiral Dynamics CHAPTER 3

What happens when you become exceptionally good at being good, but never quite learn how to be yourself?

In this deeply personal chapter of Deep Play, we move from Frank Sinatra’s swaggering declaration of “My Way” into the complicated question of what happens when the developmental capacity for power, ego, anger, boundaries, and self-assertion never gets a chance to fully develop.

Growing up Mormon, I learned the virtues of obedience, sacrifice, service, harmony, and putting something larger than myself first. But I also internalized another message: anger was dangerous, conflict threatened connection, disappointing others meant I was doing something wrong, and being a good person often meant suppressing what I wanted. Over time, belonging became more important than authenticity.

I became very good at accommodating other people and much less skilled at recognizing and defending my own boundaries. My internal compass increasingly pointed toward the expectations of authority, family, community, and the people I loved rather than toward myself.

Then that entire structure collapsed.

Leaving Mormonism forced me to confront surprisingly basic questions as an adult: What do I want? What do I believe? Who am I when nobody else gets to give me the answer?

In that context, reclaiming some of the supposedly “lower” Red stage of development began to look less like regression and more like unfinished developmental work. Creativity became part of that process. Writing, acting, singing, podcasting, questioning authority, expressing anger, setting boundaries, and risking disapproval all required something I had spent much of my life distrusting: an ego strong enough to believe that my voice deserved to exist.

And then, on a flight home from vacation with my kids, I watched Better Man and heard Robbie Williams sing “My Way.”

I cried.

Not because I wanted to become Frank Sinatra or Robbie Williams. But because for the first time, the song sounded like permission to stop kneeling and just be me.

This episode explores the messy difference between selfishness and selfhood, between healthy and unhealthy anger, between disagreement and contention, and between boundaries and cruelty. It asks whether some behaviors that look like regression from the outside might sometimes be the painful work of developing capacities that were skipped the first time around.

Because the goal isn't to replace compassion with power.

It is to give compassion a backbone.

And perhaps that's what healthy Red ultimately offers us: the ability to love, serve, sacrifice, and care for other people not because we're frightened of what will happen if we don't, but because we're finally free enough to fully choose them for ourselves.

Deep Play Pod details:

If this episode resonates with you, you can help keep the podcast accessible to everyone by following, supporting, and sharing the show on Patreon:⁠ ⁠https://www.patreon.com/c/DeepPlay⁠⁠

The official Deep Play Podcast playlist with all the songs we’ve used to illustrate the concepts we've covered for expansive living can be found here:⁠ ⁠https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4VwZiaenSdnrd7nKO25oiy?si=2b064de6b08a43c5⁠⁠

Send us your thoughts and comments: ⁠deepplaypod@gmail.com

#8 I Did It My Way: The Power of Becoming Yourself: Spiral Dynamics Red Stage: CHAPTER 2

What if selfishness isn't always a flaw? What if learning to say I want, I choose, and this is my life is actually a necessary part of becoming a healthy human being?

In this episode of Deep Play, we mine Frank Sinatra’s “My Way” to explore the psychology of power, ego, confidence, and self-authorship.

On the surface, the song practically bleeds Red, the power-driven third stage of Spiral Dynamics. Sinatra stands tall, takes the blows, swallows his doubts, claims his victories, and refuses to kneel. There are mistakes and consequences along the way, but remarkably few apologies. The ultimate measure of a life well lived according to this stage is simple: I did it my way.

But as you might guess, that attitude has a shadow. Unchecked confidence can become arrogance. Self-assertion can become domination. Independence can become an inability to recognize how deeply our lives depend on other people.

But Luke and Jen highlight a side of red that they both missed in their own growth early in life: For people who learned to survive by pleasing others, avoiding conflict, suppressing desires, or believing that asserting themselves was selfish or rude, Red contains something almost medicinal: permission to exist on your own terms.

We explore why a healthy ego isn't something to eliminate, but something to develop. Why disappointment and regret are sometimes unavoidable consequences of making your own choices. Why boldness can be both dangerous and deeply attractive. And why a person who never learns to assert themselves may struggle to build the confidence necessary for all growth that comes later.

And then we arrive at the lyric at the heart of the episode:

“For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught.”

It captures both the beauty and danger of the Red worldview: the discovery that your voice, desires, strength, and identity actually belong to you.

Because sometimes growing up means learning to cooperate with the world.

And sometimes it means finally learning when not to kneel.

Deep Play Pod details:

If this episode resonates with you, you can help keep the podcast accessible to everyone by following, supporting, and sharing the show on Patreon:⁠ ⁠https://www.patreon.com/c/DeepPlay⁠⁠

The official Deep Play Podcast playlist with all the songs we’ve used to illustrate the concepts we've covered for expansive living can be found here:⁠ ⁠https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4VwZiaenSdnrd7nKO25oiy?si=2b064de6b08a43c5⁠⁠

Send us your thoughts and comments: ⁠deepplaypod@gmail.com

#7 Frank Sinatra's My Way: Power, Ego, and the Birth of Self: Spiral Dynamics Red Stage CHAPTER 1

Before there were rules to follow, systems to trust, or moral codes to obey, there was power.

In this episode of Deep Play, we explore the Red stage of Spiral Dynamics, the explosive developmental leap where the individual ego steps out of the tribe and declares: I am here. I want things. And I’m going to do something about it.

Our soundtrack is Frank Sinatra’s immortal anthem “My Way.” We trace Sinatra’s remarkable rise, fall, and reinvention, from Bobby-soxer hysteria and Hollywood stardom to the Rat Pack, volatile temper, tough-guy mythology, and one of the most recognizable declarations of personal sovereignty ever recorded in song.

Then we dig beneath the swagger.

Drawing connections between Spiral Dynamics and the developmental theories of Clare Graves, Robert Kegan, Lawrence Kohlberg, Jane Loevinger, Jean Piaget, Abraham Maslow, and others, we explore why the emergence of ego, power, confidence, and self-interest represents an important chapter in human development.

Because Red isn't simply violence, narcissism, domination, and “might makes right.” Healthy Red gives us something essential: agency. The ability to say no. To take up space that is rightfully ours. To express what we want. To defend ourselves. To stop living entirely according to someone else's expectations.

The shadow is brash domination.

The gift is selfhood.

So pour yourself something Sinatra might approve of, relax and join us as we explore the developmental force behind one of the most defiant sentences in popular music:

I did it my way.

Deep Play Pod details:

If this episode resonates with you, you can help keep the podcast accessible to everyone by following, supporting, and sharing the show on Patreon:⁠ ⁠https://www.patreon.com/c/DeepPlay⁠⁠

The official Deep Play Podcast playlist with all the songs we’ve used to illustrate the concepts we've covered for expansive living can be found here:⁠ ⁠https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4VwZiaenSdnrd7nKO25oiy?si=2b064de6b08a43c5⁠⁠

Send us your thoughts and comments: ⁠deepplaypod@gmail.com

#4 When Superstitions aren't so Super: Luke and Jen share personal experiences of transcending their own superstitious beliefs: Spiral Dynamics Purple Stage: CHAPTER 3

What happens when you realize that many of the superstitious views you grew up with aren't really all that super?

In this episode of Deep Play, Luke and Jen continue exploring the magical, animistic world view of the Purple Stage of the Spiral Dynamics, but this time the journey gets personal.

As children, most of us lived for years in a world where Santa could really visit every house in one night, stuffed animals had feelings, special shoes made us run faster, stepping on a crack could injure our mother's backs, and a kiss could make a scraped knee better.

But what happens when those magical beliefs get a little more complex and carried into adulthood, like culturally reinforced superstitions or religious stories?

Magical/superstition beliefs have the power to give humans of all ages security, imagination, hope, and a way of making sense of an enormous and confusing universe. Unfortunately these same beliefs often come with significant shadows, because they also have the power to instill deeply irrational fears and harmful behaviors.The truth is most of us never entirely leave that magical world behind. Adults still carry lucky objects. Athletes perform elaborate pregame rituals. We knock on wood. We notice coincidences. We feel certain songs arrive at exactly the right moment. We sense destiny in relationships. We sometimes wonder whether an unexpected event might be a sign to us from the heavens.

Luke and Jen explore their own personal experiences with Mormon magical beliefs and how they originated in Joseph Smith's early days of treasure seeking, seer stones, visions, prophecy, angels, folk magic, and religious experimentation, along with the remarkable spiritual laboratory of early nineteenth-century America that historians call the Burned-over District. And how generations these beliefs were passed on to us as children.

But this isn't simply an episode about whether those beliefs or Mormonism as a whole are true or false.

It's about what those beliefs did for us and generations of Mormons before us. They created meaning, identity, belonging, and made us feel as though we were at the center of the universe.

For Luke, losing that worldview as he deconstructed Mormonism over the last few years has been devastating. Eventually an even deeper belief began to collapse: the idea that God, the universe, or some invisible force was divinely orchestrating the events of his life. And when the universe stopped speaking, something frightening appeared in the silence.

Nihilism.

If there was no divine plan, no cosmic choreography, no invisible hand guiding his life, then what did any of it mean?

But perhaps there is a third possibility between complete faith in cosmic magic and the terror of nihilism. Maybe we can still experience relationships, nature, a sky filled with stars and deeply touching music that seems to arrive at just the right time without believing they were cosmically orchestrated just for us, but still find awe and appreciation for their existence in our lives.

Maybe a coincidence can still be meaningful without being supernatural. Maybe shared community ritual can connect us without controlling us. Maybe spotting symbolic meaning in life events can reveal something profound without being a literal sign from the universe.

Maybe we can experience awe, beauty, transcendence, intuition, mystery, and interconnectedness while still being willing to ask: How do I actually know what I think I know?

Perhaps development isn't a journey from enchantment to disenchantment.

Perhaps it's a journey from unconscious surrender to inherited beliefs and instead a transcendent awe and appreciation for the meaning we consciously ascribe to our personal interactions with the universe.