What if the church's obsession with growth is just modern-day Baal worship? Andrew Root returns to the podcast to discuss his new book Baal and the Gods of More: Rescuing Church Growth from Idolatry (Baker Academic). Root — Carrie Olson Baalson Professor of Youth and Family Ministry at Luther Seminary — unpacks how the pressure to grow (whether through innovation or identity affirmation) mirrors ancient Israel's turn to fertility gods, and what it might mean instead to trust a God who meets us in weakness rather than escalation.

[0:24] Intro — Facebook-as-salvation in the 2000s, LGBTQ inclusion in mainline churches, and Flint, Michigan as parallel stories of hoping something will bring back “the good old days”

[4:44] What led Root to write the book — a recurring church-growth conversation and an offhand comment about “fertility gods” that became the whole project

[7:15] Baal as a fertility god, and how capital (financial, social, cultural) functions the same way for us today

[9:27] The real question underneath growth anxiety — do we actually trust God?

[9:53] Golden-era memory in mainline Protestantism (and Flint) as a parallel to Israel longing for Solomon’s era

[15:37] The two camps inside every denomination — techno-optimists and identitarians — and why Root thinks both run on the same escalatory, capitalist logic

[23:36] “We’re all prosperity preachers now” — willing to take on poverty now only to cash out later

[31:35] Why Protestants have neglected Mary, and Luther’s reading of her as the true prophet

[34:16] Jezebel reframed — not a sexual temptress but “the great economist” importing growth theory into Israel

[38:12] The Magnificat as confession, not just judgment on others

[41:09] A widower’s story on a Viking cruise — what he was actually grateful for from his church

[45:35] Root’s word to pastors and small congregations dealing with anxiety about decline

[50:21] Where to find Andrew Root’s work — andrewroot.org

Andrew Root's website: andrewroot.org

Book: Baal and the Gods of More — Rescuing Church Growth from Idolatry (Baker Academic)

Ministry in a Secular Age Podcast: https://www.andrewroot.org/podcast/

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Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Church and Main on your favorite podcast app, leave a review, and visit churchandmain.org or churchandmain.substack.com to read more and support the show. Send an email to dennis@churchandmain.org.

In John 14, Philip asks Jesus to show them the Father. Jesus gives him a pained look and answers, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." If we want to know who God is, we look to Jesus, and when we do, we find a vulnerable God.

Pastor and theologian Kenneth Tanner joins Dennis to talk about his new book, Vulnerable God: How Jesus Upends Our Assumptions About God and Shows Us How to Be Human. Tanner argues that Jesus doesn't blend our ideas of God with our ideas of humanity. Instead, Jesus interrogates both. In his words, "Jesus is the one who shows us what power even is." That means power looks like silence in the womb, helplessness in a manger, and surrender on a cross, not coercion or force.

In this episode:

• Tanner's journey from a Pentecostal upbringing in Orlando through the charismatic movement to a liturgical church, the Book of Common Prayer, and weekly Eucharist
• Why the Word who spoke the cosmos into being accepts silence in the womb
• A fresh look at the three temptations in the wilderness as a test about power
• What the Black church's witness teaches about a God who is with us in suffering
• Resisting cynicism and false stories about God and ourselves, especially on social media

Resources:

Substack - https://kennethtanner.substack.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kenntanner/

Vulnerable God Book

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Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Church and Main on your favorite podcast app, leave a review, and visit churchandmain.org or churchandmain.substack.com to read more and support the show. Send an email to dennis@churchandmain.org.

We tend to think of democracy in terms of institutions and procedures — voting, the Supreme Court, Congress. But what if it actually depends on something less visible: the everyday virtues that make shared life with people we didn't choose possible at all?

Dennis talks with Jason Edwards, senior pastor of Second Baptist Church in Liberty, Missouri, about his Baptist News Global essay on democracy as a moral practice, sparked by a well-known 2008 moment when Senator John McCain corrected a supporter's false claim about Barack Obama. The conversation moves from there into how churches form — or fail to form — people capable of living alongside those they disagree with, including a candid look at emotional health as part of discipleship.

They also touch on Jason's forthcoming book, At Home with God: How the Cross Transforms Us, built around the image of a house with many windows — each theory of the atonement offering a true but partial glimpse of something too vast to fully see.

In this episode:

• Why Jason calls democracy "a moral practice" rather than just a system
• The McCain moment that shaped his thinking
• How churches can cultivate — or undermine — emotional maturity
• A preview of At Home with God and its "house with many windows" approach to atonement

Links:

• Jason's essay, "Democracy as a moral practice, not just a system" (Baptist News Global)
• Jason G. Edwards on Substack
• At Home with God: How the Cross Transforms Us (IVP, November 2026)

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Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Church and Main on your favorite podcast app, leave a review, and visit churchandmain.org or churchandmain.substack.com to read more and support the show. Send an email to dennis@churchandmain.org.