What if the church's obsession with growth is just modern-day Baal worship? Andrew Root returns to the podcast to discuss his new book Baal and the Gods of More: Rescuing Church Growth from Idolatry (Baker Academic). Root — Carrie Olson Baalson Professor of Youth and Family Ministry at Luther Seminary — unpacks how the pressure to grow (whether through innovation or identity affirmation) mirrors ancient Israel's turn to fertility gods, and what it might mean instead to trust a God who meets us in weakness rather than escalation.

[0:24] Intro — Facebook-as-salvation in the 2000s, LGBTQ inclusion in mainline churches, and Flint, Michigan as parallel stories of hoping something will bring back “the good old days”

[4:44] What led Root to write the book — a recurring church-growth conversation and an offhand comment about “fertility gods” that became the whole project

[7:15] Baal as a fertility god, and how capital (financial, social, cultural) functions the same way for us today

[9:27] The real question underneath growth anxiety — do we actually trust God?

[9:53] Golden-era memory in mainline Protestantism (and Flint) as a parallel to Israel longing for Solomon’s era

[15:37] The two camps inside every denomination — techno-optimists and identitarians — and why Root thinks both run on the same escalatory, capitalist logic

[23:36] “We’re all prosperity preachers now” — willing to take on poverty now only to cash out later

[31:35] Why Protestants have neglected Mary, and Luther’s reading of her as the true prophet

[34:16] Jezebel reframed — not a sexual temptress but “the great economist” importing growth theory into Israel

[38:12] The Magnificat as confession, not just judgment on others

[41:09] A widower’s story on a Viking cruise — what he was actually grateful for from his church

[45:35] Root’s word to pastors and small congregations dealing with anxiety about decline

[50:21] Where to find Andrew Root’s work — andrewroot.org

Andrew Root's website: andrewroot.org

Book: Baal and the Gods of More — Rescuing Church Growth from Idolatry (Baker Academic)

Ministry in a Secular Age Podcast: https://www.andrewroot.org/podcast/

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In John 14, Philip asks Jesus to show them the Father. Jesus gives him a pained look and answers, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." If we want to know who God is, we look to Jesus, and when we do, we find a vulnerable God.

Pastor and theologian Kenneth Tanner joins Dennis to talk about his new book, Vulnerable God: How Jesus Upends Our Assumptions About God and Shows Us How to Be Human. Tanner argues that Jesus doesn't blend our ideas of God with our ideas of humanity. Instead, Jesus interrogates both. In his words, "Jesus is the one who shows us what power even is." That means power looks like silence in the womb, helplessness in a manger, and surrender on a cross, not coercion or force.

In this episode:

• Tanner's journey from a Pentecostal upbringing in Orlando through the charismatic movement to a liturgical church, the Book of Common Prayer, and weekly Eucharist
• Why the Word who spoke the cosmos into being accepts silence in the womb
• A fresh look at the three temptations in the wilderness as a test about power
• What the Black church's witness teaches about a God who is with us in suffering
• Resisting cynicism and false stories about God and ourselves, especially on social media

Resources:

Substack - https://kennethtanner.substack.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kenntanner/

Vulnerable God Book

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We tend to think of democracy in terms of institutions and procedures — voting, the Supreme Court, Congress. But what if it actually depends on something less visible: the everyday virtues that make shared life with people we didn't choose possible at all?

Dennis talks with Jason Edwards, senior pastor of Second Baptist Church in Liberty, Missouri, about his Baptist News Global essay on democracy as a moral practice, sparked by a well-known 2008 moment when Senator John McCain corrected a supporter's false claim about Barack Obama. The conversation moves from there into how churches form — or fail to form — people capable of living alongside those they disagree with, including a candid look at emotional health as part of discipleship.

They also touch on Jason's forthcoming book, At Home with God: How the Cross Transforms Us, built around the image of a house with many windows — each theory of the atonement offering a true but partial glimpse of something too vast to fully see.

In this episode:

• Why Jason calls democracy "a moral practice" rather than just a system
• The McCain moment that shaped his thinking
• How churches can cultivate — or undermine — emotional maturity
• A preview of At Home with God and its "house with many windows" approach to atonement

Links:

• Jason's essay, "Democracy as a moral practice, not just a system" (Baptist News Global)
• Jason G. Edwards on Substack
• At Home with God: How the Cross Transforms Us (IVP, November 2026)

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When JD Vance accused "in this house we believe" yard signs of butchering the Nicene Creed, Methodist pastor Teer Hardy started wondering what creeds are actually for. That question turned into an essay — and this conversation.

Teer Hardy, pastor of Trinity United Methodist Church in Alexandria, Virginia, and co-host of the Crackers and Grape Juice podcast, returns to discuss his piece "Creeds Are Not Yard Signs."

Shownotes:

The Creeds Are Not Yard Signs

The Body of Christ in a Polarized Culture with Teer Hardy | Episode 222

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Dennis talks with Australian theologian Graham Joseph Hill about his new book, Ten Movements of the Jesus Way: Shifting from Worldly Self-Interest to Radical Discipleship. They discuss Graham's journey from a legalistic upbringing to planting his first church at 19, the danger of the "sovereign self," and moving past Jesus-as-slogan or Jesus-as-guru toward a third way rooted in the Gospels. Graham shares small, everyday practices of discipleship from his own church community and reflects on grace, imperfect community, and what the Jesus way offers a polarized culture.

Shownotes:

Ten Movements of the Jesus Way (Book)

Graham Joseph Hill’s website

Graham Joseph Hill Podcast

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We've all heard of Trump Derangement Syndrome — the caricature of the uber-progressive who can't stop talking about the president. But what about the opposite version? The diehard loyalist who dismisses any criticism of Trump as irrational, even when it comes from people who share their faith?

This week, Corey Nathan returns to talk about his recent essay in The Dispatch titled "Does Trump Derangement Syndrome Have a Cure?" Corey digs into what it looks like when people you love — friends, pastors, family — become what Corey calls "morally and epistemically unavailable." Drawing on an Al-Anon phrase that anchors his essay, "didn't cause it, can't control it, can't cure it," Corey wrestles with how far that logic should go when it comes to loved ones who've become unwavering Trump loyalists.

Links:

• Corey's essay in The Dispatch: "Does Trump Derangement Syndrome Have a Cure?"
• Corey's podcast: politicsandreligion.us
• Episode 78: Finding God in the Mundane with Corey Nathan

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Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Church and Main on your favorite podcast app, leave a review, and visit churchandmain.org or churchandmain.substack.com to read more and support the show. Send an email to dennis@churchandmain.org.

Dennis sits down with Jason Swan Clark, theologian, spiritual director, and director of the London Centre for Spiritual Direction, to unpack his article "How Inclusive Church Excludes." Drawing on his doctoral work on Christian identity formation and consumer culture, he brings a sharp theological lens to a word that gets thrown around constantly but rarely examined.

The conversation traces how "inclusion" has quietly become what Jason calls a "package deal" — a pseudo-confession where accepting one position requires accepting a whole cluster of others, on both the progressive and conservative sides. As Jason puts it in his article, inclusion has shifted from being one Christian virtue among many to becoming "the lens through which everything else is read, scripture, doctrine, ethics, and the church itself."

Shownotes:

How 'Inclusive' Church Excludes - https://www.spex.so/p/how-inclusive-church-excludes The Church Needs Inclusion and Evangelism - https://churchandmain.substack.com/p/the-church-needs-inclusion-and-evangelism

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America isn't breaking apart because people are more extreme. We're breaking apart because our civic relationships are. That's the line from writer and researcher Lura Forcum that sparked this conversation on political polarization, tribalism, and what faith communities can do about it.

Dennis Sanders sits down with Lura Forcum, psychologist by training, writer of the newsletter How to Human, and co-host of the We Made This Political podcast, for a wide-ranging conversation on why Americans are sorting into hostile camps and what it would take to find our way back to each other.

Lura draws on her background in social psychology to explain how tribalism works beneath our conscious awareness, why dehumanization is the first step toward justifying harm, and how her Christian faith, particularly the conviction that all people are made in the image of God, shapes her understanding of political conflict. The conversation moves through some of the year's hardest moments, including the death of Senator Lindsey Graham and the shooting of Charlie Kirk, and asks what it looks like to hold complexity about people we disagree with rather than reducing them to caricature.

Along the way, Dennis and Lura talk about the segregated hour of American church life, the discomfort of crossing racial and denominational lines to worship, and why sharing a meal, whether at a neighborhood potluck or the communion table, might be one of the most powerful tools we have for rebuilding trust.

Shownotes:

How to Human (Substack newsletter) - https://h2h.substack.com/ We Made This Political (Podcast) - https://wemadethispolitical.substack.com/podcast

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