Veronique de Rugy speaks with Thomas Howes and James Patterson about their book, Why Postliberalism Failed. The authors examine the growing post-liberal movement, particularly Catholic integralism, which rejects representative government and religious neutrality in favor of a powerful executive guided by a state-supported conception of the common good.

Drawing on examples from interwar Europe and Latin America—including Franco's Spain, Salazar's Portugal, Vichy France, Slovakia, Croatia, Brazil, and Argentina—they argue that these ideas have already been tested. Rather than restoring religious faith or social order, post-liberal regimes became authoritarian, persecuted minorities, and compromised the churches that supported them. Political leaders used religious institutions for legitimacy while steadily subordinating them to the state, ultimately contributing to religious disaffiliation.

The conversation also explores postliberalism's influence on today's American right, its relationship to protectionism and Christian nationalism, and its failure to resist antisemitism within its broader coalition. Howes and Patterson conclude that religious communities would achieve more through liberal institutions—religious liberty, limited government, school choice, and voluntary association—than by attempting to capture the power of the state.