This episode is sponsored by Leafcloud. For heating networks, property portfolios, and public infrastructure operators, Leafcloud offers decentralised cloud infrastructure designed to align digital workloads with energy and climate goals. Learn more at https://www.leaf.cloud

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The energy transition is often treated as a technical challenge, retrofit the buildings, deploy the technology, reduce emissions.

But what happens when those solutions ignore the social realities of the people they’re meant to serve?

In this episode of CleanTalk, we’re joined by Charissa Leiwakabessy, a political scientist and PhD researcher studying social justice in the energy transition in the Netherlands.

Drawing on in-depth fieldwork in social housing and retrofit programmes, Charissa explains how well-intentioned energy policies can unintentionally reproduce inequality, and why siloed, technocratic approaches often generate resistance, delays, and loss of trust.

This conversation reframes the energy transition as a social process, not just an engineering one, and shows why addressing lived realities isn’t a moral extra, but a practical necessity.

Enjoy!

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Connect with Charissa on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/charissa-leiwakabessy/

Join the CleanTalk community on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/12991627/

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CleanTalk is produced by Harmer Visuals, a film & media company specialising in brand & case study storytelling for organisations across the renewable energy and clean technology sector. To find out more about how we can help you, visit: https://www.harmervisuals.com

Many thanks to...

- Leafcloud for sponsoring our recording venue

- Our rental suppliers -

O'RIORDAN | https://oriordan.io/ | Sunipa Pictures | https://www.sunipapictures.com/

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Chapters for today's episode:

00:00 – Introduction

Setting the context: social justice and the energy transition in the Netherlands.

01:33 – From Political Science to Energy Justice

How academic curiosity leads into sustainability and social justice research.

01:48 – What a PhD Actually Looks Like in Practice

Why this research happens in the field, not just in theory.

04:52 – Energy Transition as a Political Process

How decisions redistribute power, money, time, and responsibility.

06:50 – Energy Poverty Is More Than High Bills

How housing conditions, practices, and social factors intersect.

09:40 – Two Very Different Professional Responses

Ignoring claims vs creating pathways for solutions.

11:22 – Damp, Mould, and Hidden Costs of Retrofit

Why unresolved issues come back more expensively later.

13:48 – Trust Is Lowest Where Transition Is Happening Fastest

The paradox of neglected neighbourhoods and quick CO₂ wins.

14:55 – Treating Energy as a Social Transition

How addressing justice restores trust and avoids delays.

17:14 – The Risk of a Purely Technocratic Transition

Why technical success can still reproduce inequality.

19:10 – Visibility, Consistency, and Being Present in Communities

Why trust is built face-to-face, not through institutions alone.

21:33 – Ad Break

23:09 – Visibility Continued...

25:13 – Public–Private Collaboration Done Well

What Rotterdam gets right about learning by doing.

26:39 – Informal Feedback Loops That Actually Work

Why low-key community meetings outperform formal reporting.

28:32 – Storytelling as Infrastructure

How narratives create recognition, hope, and engagement.

32:26 – Local Ambassadors vs Influencer Climate Messaging

What scales — and what doesn’t — in public engagement.

34:26 – Navigating Political Polarisation Around Energy

Why dialogue matters more than winning arguments.

38:09 – When Siloed Work Delays the Transition

Why ignoring social issues wastes time and money.

40:11 – Quickfire Curiosity

Futurism, intuition, and career advice.

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