Brea knew a secret guest would be arriving. She just didn't know who.

When Phil walked up to the front door Brea couldn't have been happier. That's Uncle Phil, Brea's uncle and a regular in our stories for ages.

Now he's finally in the studio. He came over to swap a guitar pedal, and I may have trapped him into co-hosting with us.

Phil teaches woodwork and builds guitars from skateboard decks in a single garage under his house. He brought one along, so we asked, 'Why do we bother making things when we can buy almost anything?'

You might want to listen if:

• You used to make things, and you can’t quite remember when or why you stopped.

• Part of you believes creativity only really counts if it earns money or finds an audience.

Visit Phil on Instagram

Pain In The Arts is a weekly podcast about the reality of creative life. Hosted by Breallyn and Lyndon Wesley. One of them never knows the topic until recording begins.

If you enjoyed this episode, the best thing you can do is share it with one person who'd love it.

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Theme music by Lyndon Wesley

Produced on Wurundjeri Woi-wurrung Country.

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