What does it mean to use the Enneagram in therapy responsibly?

In Part 1 of this two-part conversation on Typology, Anthony Skinner and I lay the groundwork for therapists, counselors, and coaches who want to responsibly integrate the Enneagram into clinical practice with wisdom and care.

Together, we unpack what the Enneagram is—and what it isn't—in the therapy room. It's not a diagnosis. It's not a substitute for evidence-based modalities. And it should never flatten complexity or bypass deeper trauma work.

I also share practical wisdom from decades of work as a therapist, priest, and Enneagram teacher, offering guidance for using the Enneagram in a way that increases compassion rather than contempt, flexibility rather than rigidity, and insight rather than shame.

At its best, the Enneagram helps us see people not as problems to solve, but as stories shaped by fear, longing, and adaptation. Used wisely, it becomes a powerful reflective tool that deepens emotional intelligence, strengthens therapeutic relationships, and supports real transformation.

When the Enneagram is used well, it doesn't replace therapy.

It deepens it.

There are conversations that stretch you a little. And then there are conversations that gently but firmly rearrange the furniture in your mind.

This week, I sat down with Keith Kurlander and Will Van Derveer—co-founders of the Integrative Psychiatry Institute—to talk about something that's generating a lot of curiosity and, let's be honest, some anxiety: psychedelic-assisted therapy.

Before you brace yourself, this isn't a hype session. It's a thoughtful, grounded conversation about trauma, the nervous system, and what happens when traditional therapy isn't enough to reach the deepest layers of pain we carry.

We explored how trauma shapes our personalities, how it imprints on the body, and why insight alone often doesn't create lasting change. As someone who cares deeply about the Enneagram and recovery, I found this especially compelling. So much of our personality structure is built around adaptation—strategies that once kept us safe but now quietly run the show.

Keith and Will explain how psychedelic-assisted therapy, when done legally and in carefully structured clinical settings, may help people access and heal places that feel otherwise unreachable. We also talk about the risks, the ethics, and the importance of discernment.

This isn't about chasing peak experiences. It's about healing what's unfinished.

If you've ever felt stuck in patterns that insight alone couldn't untangle… if you've wondered whether deeper healing is possible… this conversation might open a door.

LEARN MORE ABOUT WILL AND KEITH

WILL VAN DERVEER, MD, is a leader in the adoption of integrative psychiatry practices to treat mental health issues. He is cofounder of the Integrative Psychiatry Institute and Integrative Psychiatry Centers and cohost of The Higher Practice Podcast for Optimal Mental Health. He has published research on MDMA-assisted psychotherapy. Dr. Van Derveer has published research on MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for PTSD [1] and written book chapters in the fields of ketamine-assisted psychotherapy and other clinical applications of psychedelic compounds. His passion is finding effective relief from psychological suffering using a vast array of the most natural approaches possible. In addition to traditional medical training, He is a meditation instructor and has trained in shamanism, EMDR, somatic experiencing, internal family systems, cognitive behavioral therapy, and hypnosis.

KEITH KURLANDER, MA, LPC, is cofounder of the Integrative Psychiatry Institute and Integrative Psychiatry Centers and cohost of The Higher Practice Podcast for Optimal Mental Health. He graduated Naropa University in 2005 with a master's degree in Transpersonal Counseling Psychology, and he has practiced integrative psychotherapy and coaching with individuals, couples and groups for over 15 years. Keith's work as a coach focuses on celebrities, influencers, entrepreneurs, and CEOs who want to make huge changes in their lives, overcome long-standing patterns, and achieve greater levels of fulfillment. Keith specializes in helping individuals achieve optimal mental health and peak potential.

Social Links & Website (for promotional use)

Website - Keith Kurlander, MA, LPC
Instagram (Keith) | Instagram (Will)
LinkedIn (Keith) | LinkedIn (Will)
Psychedelic Therapy: A Revolutionary Approach to Restoring Your Mental Health and Reclaiming Your Life (Shambhala; March 31, 2026),

In this episode of Typology, I sit down with therapist and author Joe Nucci for a thoughtful, wide-ranging conversation about the Enneagram, mental health, and the growing misuse of therapeutic language in our culture.

Joe—an Enneagram Three—shares his own journey with the Enneagram, the hidden shame dynamics of Threes, and how public success can quietly pull us toward performance instead of integrity. Together, we explore why tools like the Enneagram work best as maps, not MRIs—helpful for self-awareness and empathy, but dangerous when they turn into rigid labels.

We also dig into Joe's new book, Psycho Babble, discussing how clinical terms like narcissist, OCD, and trauma have become everyday adjectives—and what it costs us when labels replace discernment, curiosity, and real relationship.

This is a grounded, honest conversation about growth, character, and what it actually means to become a healthier version of yourself—without turning self-awareness into self-avoidance.

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ABOUT JOE NUCCI

Joe Nucci is an expert in breaking down how people talk about mental health. He's a psychotherapist who corrects widely misused terms, adds valuable nuance and explains complex ideas in ways anyone can understand. He can take a mental health lens to any hot button issue. Anyone who listens to him will walk away knowing themselves and others a little better. Joe reached over 10 million people in his first 6 months of posting content. His book "Psychobabble" explores why mental health information is so confusing to navigate and how to more easily understand different perspectives about mental health. He also has an upcoming podcast, being produced by Luminary Podcasts, where he will take deeper dives into the different mental health topics that he explores on Instagram, Facebook and Tiktok @joenuccitherapy

Pscyhobabble: Viral Mental Health Myths & the Truths to Set You Free