In this episode, Indra and Amanda discuss the complexities of co-creation in the workplace, particularly when it comes to leadership dynamics and the responsibilities that come with collaboration. They explore the importance of providing structure in collaborative efforts, the pitfalls of starting from a blank slate, and the need for clear expectations and communication. The conversation also touches on the challenges of goal setting, particularly with OKRs, and the significance of documenting contributions to avoid repeating past mistakes. Ultimately, the episode emphasizes the need for both leaders and team members to understand their roles and responsibilities in collaborative projects.

Takeaways

• Co-creation can often feel like a delegation of responsibilities.
• Leaders should come prepared to collaborate, not just delegate.
• Providing structure is essential for effective collaboration.
• Blank slates can lead to confusion and misalignment.
• People often don't know what they want until they see it.
• Documenting past experiences can help avoid future pitfalls.
• Understanding your bandwidth is crucial before taking on new tasks.
• Negotiating expectations can lead to better outcomes.
• The concept of 'what's in it for me' is important for all parties.
• OKRs should not be a bottom-up process without clear guidance.

Useful Links

• The Messy Middle Matters Merch: messymiddlemerch.com
• The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary
• Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback
• Amanda Jane Lee on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandajanelee/
• Indra Klavins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/

Chapters

00:00 Navigating Co-Creation in the Workplace

01:47 The Challenges of Role Definition

04:58 The Importance of Structure in Collaboration

07:47 The Value of Providing Context

10:59 Understanding Leadership Dynamics

13:44 Assessing Personal Boundaries and Responsibilities

16:56 Negotiating Expectations and Outcomes

19:51 The Slippery Slope of Helping

22:52 The Pitfalls of Bottom-Up Goal Setting

25:56 Documenting and Learning from Experiences

33:25 Outro

What does it take to build—and protect—culture when your team and community are growing faster than your playbook? In this episode, Indra talks with Derek Kastner, Head of Experience at Fabrik, about what it really means to nurture community and connection in a rapidly scaling organization.

From being one of Fabrik’s first three employees to helping onboard its growing team and shape the member experience, Derek shares candid lessons about balancing perfectionism with presence, co-creating culture with members, and learning to set boundaries while staying deeply human. Together, they explore the tension between structure and spontaneity, the invisible “glue work” that holds communities together, and how transparency, trust, and a little messiness can make something truly special.

Useful Links:

• Derek on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/derekkastner/
• Indra on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/
• The Messy Middle Matters Merch: messymiddlemerch.com
• The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary
• Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback

When the world shifts under your feet, what do you do next? In this episode, Indra talks with bestselling children’s author Nancy Krulik about the art of resilience and reinvention. From investigative journalism to over 250 books for kids — and now animation — Nancy’s career is a masterclass in adapting, learning, and staying curious when plans fall apart.

Together, they explore what it takes to recognize when it’s time to pivot, how to turn setbacks into opportunities, and why nothing you learn is ever wasted. Nancy shares hard-earned lessons on staying grounded through industry changes, embracing new tools (including AI), and rediscovering hidden talents along the way.

If you’ve ever been knocked down and wondered how to begin again — this conversation is your reminder that resilience isn’t just about bouncing back; it’s about changing course with purpose.

Listen for:

• How to turn a downturn into a creative turning point
• The value of lifelong learning and fearless experimentation
• Why “nothing is ever wasted” — even the hard parts
• How staying true to your craft helps you weather change

Useful Links:

• The Messy Middle Matters Merch: messymiddlemerch.com
• The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary
• Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback
• Nancy’s Website: https://www.realnancykrulik.com/
• Monsters Aren’t Real???: https://www.youtube.com/@MonstersArentRealCartoon
• Indra Klavins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/

Business goals and human behavior don’t always line up — and the friction can stall progress, frustrate teams, and leave leaders scratching their heads. In this episode, we dive into real-world examples where business logic clashes with human tendencies, from time tracking to communication challenges and conflicting incentives. We share strategies for bridging the gap, including clear rationale, collaboration across teams, and open forums to build trust. If you’ve ever wondered why good processes fail despite good intentions, this episode is for you.

Useful Links:

• The Messy Middle Matters Merch: messymiddlemerch.com
• The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary
• Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback
• Amanda Jane Lee on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandajanelee/
• Indra Klavins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/

Perfectionism can drive excellence — but it can also stall progress, create stress, and keep teams stuck. In this episode, we explore the “pencils down” metaphor, helping you recognize when good enough is actually brilliant. We discuss the roots and benefits of perfectionism, the pitfalls of over-editing and micromanagement, and how leaders can model healthy standards. Packed with practical strategies for releasing control, encouraging iteration, and knowing when to move on, this episode is a guide for anyone ready to break free from perfectionism without sacrificing quality.

Useful Links:

• The Messy Middle Matters Merch: messymiddlemerch.com
• The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary
• Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback
• Amanda Jane Lee on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandajanelee/
• Indra Klavins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/

Thinking about leaving corporate America but not sure what it really takes? In this episode, Indra sits down with Ashley Grace Jefferson to explore the mental, emotional, and practical shifts involved in breaking free from the corporate system.

They unpack the culture and incentives of corporate life, address the fears and stigma around leaving, and discuss the logistical realities—from health insurance to financial planning—that often catch people off guard. Ashley and Indra share personal stories of doubt, courage, and resilience, highlighting the importance of community, support systems, and authentic identity when taking the leap.

Whether you’re dreaming of entrepreneurship, a career pivot, or simply choosing yourself over a paycheck, this conversation offers insight, encouragement, and actionable advice for making the jump and building a life on your own terms.

Key Takeaways:

• Recognize the mental and emotional shifts required to leave corporate life.
• Prepare for practical realities like benefits, finances, and pricing your work.
• Build community and support systems to replace what you leave behind.
• Embrace vulnerability, resilience, and the evolution of your authentic identity.
• Take the leap even if you don’t feel “ready”—your path will grow with you.

Join us and discover how to choose yourself, navigate uncertainty, and redefine what freedom and fulfillment mean in your career.

Useful Links:

• The Messy Middle Matters Merch: messymiddlemerch.com
• The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary
• Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback
• Ashley on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleygracejefferson/
• Ashley’s Website: ashleygracejefferson.com/
• Ashley’s Newsletter: startup-baddie.beehiiv.com/
• Ashley on Threads: https://www.threads.com/@startupbaddie
• Indra on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/
• Indra’s Website: peopleprocessthings.com
• Indra’s Newsletter: peopleprocessthings.substack.com/
• Interview with Cindy Gallop (3 addictions): https://youtu.be/eAJu225PcQU?si=5HETDKxb62OmbL1w

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra sits down with Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson to explore what it really feels like to be at a career crossroads. From packing up her life (and two cats!) to drive across the country, to rethinking what success looks like beyond job titles, Juleen shares her story of stepping outside her comfort zone and learning to trust herself. Together, Indra and Juleen unpack the tension between chasing external validation and building a life that feels authentic, sustainable, and joyful. They also reflect on the pressure of “picking your struggle,” filling your own cup, and how content creation can be both a tool for clarity and a leap of faith in itself. If you’ve ever wondered whether to keep climbing the ladder or carve your own path, this conversation is for you.

Useful Links:

• The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com
• The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary
• Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback
• Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/juleenbean/
• Indra Klavins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/

Branding yourself isn’t optional anymore—it’s essential. In this episode, Indra sits down with Ashley Grace Jefferson, founder of Startup Baddie and F3 (Founders, Funders & Fractionals), to explore how to stand out, show up authentically, and even rebrand yourself when the time is right.

They dive into the signs it’s time to rebrand, the difference between corporate and personal branding, and practical steps for making your brand visible—like social media, websites, and visual identity. Ashley shares her own journey, including the story behind her now-famous “Startup Baddie” identity, and offers actionable tips listeners can use immediately.

Beyond the practical, they explore the emotional side of branding: vulnerability, imposter syndrome, handling feedback, and embracing radical acceptance as your brand evolves. Whether you’re an entrepreneur or a professional navigating the modern workplace, this conversation is full of insights to help you feel seen, confident, and ready to take bold steps forward.

Key Takeaways:

• Recognize when it’s time to rebrand and why it matters.
• Align your brand with your values, personality, and goals.
• Show up authentically while managing fear and self-doubt.
• Take concrete steps to make your brand visible and consistent.
• Embrace the ongoing evolution of your personal or professional identity.

Join us, and get ready to stand out, show up, and let your brand grow with you!

Useful Links:

• The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com
• The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary
• Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback
• Ashley Jefferson on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleygracejefferson/
• Indra Klavins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/