Bert Neuborne entered Cornell at 16 expecting to become a doctor. Organic chemistry helped change those plans. A few years later, after Harvard Law School and three years on Wall Street, he took a one-year leave to work at the Civil Liberties Union.

On his second day, Muhammad Ali walked through the door looking for legal help in his fight against the draft.

Neuborne knew he had found his work.

In Part 1 of his conversation with Neal Goldstein, Neuborne looks back at practicing civil liberties law during the extraordinary legal and cultural changes of the 1960s and 1970s. He discusses knowing civil rights worker Michael Schwerner, working alongside figures including Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and the period when constitutional lawyers could sometimes watch arguments that began around a lunch table become real changes in the law.

He also tells the remarkable story of representing B-52 pilots and bombardiers who refused to continue bombing Cambodia without understanding why they were being ordered to do it. The case ultimately sent Neuborne across the country in search of Justice William O. Douglas and produced a temporary injunction stopping the bombing.

Neuborne also explains the constitutional philosophy behind Madison's Music and why he believes the First Amendment makes more sense when its protections are read as parts of one coherent democratic story.

It is a conversation about risk, constitutional power, finding meaningful work, and what one lawyer learned from spending decades testing the boundaries of American civil liberties.

Follow or subscribe to That One Lawyer Podcast for Part 2 of Neal Goldstein's conversation with Bert Neuborne.