In this episode of It Depends, Matt and Tenille sit down with Todd Miller, Associate Director of Resilience at Auckland University of Technology (AUT) and creator of the Complex Adaptive Disaster and Emergency Management (CADEM) Framework - a systems-based rethink of how we prepare for, respond to, and recover from disasters.

Todd brings a deeply relational take to emergency management. Drawing from years in the Army, firefighting, and the National Emergency Management Agency (NEMA), he reflects on how our ability to respond well in moments of crisis depends less on command and control - and more on the quality of the relationships that connect people, organisations, and communities before disaster strikes. His key tip? Invest time building trust over a cup of tea - it might be the most powerful hidden preparedness strategy we have.

Resources mentioned in the episode include:

• Todd's paper proposing the CADEM Framework
• The toolkit built off the paper, which includes templates and processes for use by organisations and communities
• Todd's methodological paper on Constructivist Networked Grounded Theory

In this episode of The It Depends Podcast, Matt and Tenille sit down with Associate Professor Emily Gates from Boston College. Emily is an evaluator, educator, and systems thinker whose work bridges theory and practice, with a focus on how evaluation can better reflect the realities of large-scale systems change.

Their conversation ranges from the limits of outcomes-focused evaluation to the importance of boundaries, perspectives, and stewardship in systems practice. Together, they explore what it means to evaluate systemic change, the role of commissioners and funders, and why evaluators may need to act less like neutral judges and more like facilitators of critical deliberation.

Emily invites us to pause, self-critique, and think differently about how evaluation can contribute to meaningful, lasting change. Whether you’re an evaluator, commissioner, or just curious about how change happens in complex systems, this conversation will spark reflection, raise challenging questions, and—of course—leave you with the reminder that sometimes the only answer is: it depends.

Thanks for listening to the Podcast! You can find out more about First Person Consullting on our website, and follow us on LinkedIn.

These are links to the resources mentioned in the episode:

• Emily's new book co-written with Pablo Vidueira - Evaluative Inquiry for Systemic Change
• Thomas Schwandt's Evaluation Foundations: Cultivating a Life of Mind for Practice
• The Omidyar Group's Systems Practice Workbook

And while we didn't mention it in the episode, Emily shared afterwards that she routinely goes back to Nora Bateson's book: Small Arcs of Larger Circles: Framing Through Other Patterns (here's an excerpt) for inspiration and new layers of insight.

And just like that the 2025 Australian Evaluation Society Conference comes to a close! Matt and Tenille quickly debrief on the day, but most importantly we hear some thoughts and reflections from the delegates on what they took from the day - the Conference as a whole!

Also, here is the evaluation report that Jo Farmer completed that Tenille discussed. Shout out to all those clients that publish such great examples for others to learn from.

If you haven't listened to Day 1 or Day 2's episodes (6.1 and 6.2) make sure to check that out first and then come back!

Day 2 of the 2025 Australian Evaluation Society Conference is done and dusted! Matt and Tenille debrief on the walk back to their hotel and we hear some thoughts from some of the delegates on what they took from the day.

Also, here is Bobby Maher's paper that Tenille referenced in the episode on defining collective capability

If you haven't listened to Day 1's episode (6.1) make sure to check that out first and then come back!

Coming to you from Canberra, Matt and Tenille summarise their key takeaways from the first day of the Australian Evaluation Society Conference in Canberra. This is the first of a three-part series covering each day.

If you haven't been able to make the Conference this is a chance to keep up with the latest thinking - as best we can - or if you are here, it's a chance to get our take on some of the key messages.

• Julian's home page with free resources and training opportunities: https://www.julianking.co.nz/
• Julian's 'Evaluation and Value for Investment' Substack
• A Guide to Evaluation of Value for Money in UK Public Service written by Julian King and Alex Hurrell
• A specific Substack post by Julian on 'Mixed Reasoning and Cubist Evaluation'
• Jane Davidson's book which changed Julian's approach: Evaluation Methodology Basics: The Nuts and Bolts of Sound Evaluation

Thanks for listening. You can find out more about us on our website, or follow us on LinkedIn.

Scaling impact sounds simple—just do more of what worked. In reality, it’s messy: contexts shift, resources are finite, politics and procurement warp timelines, and “success” looks different to different people. That’s why designing and evaluating for scale is one of the hardest gigs in our field.

In this episode of The It Depends Podcast, Matt sits down with evaluation pioneer John Gargani to explore the intersections of design, evaluation, and scaling impact. With over three decades of experience, John shares how a “misspent youth” led him into evaluation, why design and evaluation are inseparable, and how evaluators can play a crucial role in shaping better programs from the outset.

Together, Matt and John unpack the nuances of design thinking, the discipline required for innovation, and the challenges of moving beyond linear “growth models” of scale toward more dynamic, context-driven approaches. Along the way, they dive into real-world examples—from global health crises to water infrastructure—and consider what it takes to responsibly scale innovations without losing sight of ethics, trade-offs, and long-term sustainability.

We mention some resources in this episode - including John's book - which is free! Here are some quick links to get you started:

• Scaling Impact: Innovaton for the Public Good by Rob McLean and John Gargani
• GIZ Scaling Digital Innovations Workbook

Thanks for listening. You can find out more about FPC on our website, or follow us on LinkedIn.

In this episode of The It Depends Podcast, Tenille Moselen speaks with Dr. Skye Trudgett, a proud First Nations woman and CEO of Kowa, about putting Indigenous data sovereignty into practice.

Skye shares her path from aspiring sleep scientist to leading national work in evaluation, research, and community-led data governance. This episode demystifies and unpacks what Indigenous data sovereignty really means (“caring for data so data can care for Country and community”), common misconceptions, and the small but powerful changes that we can all be implementing that can shift systems.

We're not going to summarise it all here for you - this is an episode to check-out for yourself! After you've listened, we'd recommend you check out the resources and links below to learn more.

Resources and Links:

• • Start your journey by reading the Maiam nayri Wingara Indigenous Data Sovereignty Principles and other resources on their website
  • Kowa - national leaders in the design and implementation of First Nations-led Understanding, Measurement, Evaluation & Learning (UMEL) practice.
  • The OCCAAARS Framework- which Skye references in the podcast and is based on her PhD.