In this episode of It Depends, Matt and Tenille sit down with Todd Miller, Associate Director of Resilience at Auckland University of Technology (AUT) and creator of the Complex Adaptive Disaster and Emergency Management (CADEM) Framework - a systems-based rethink of how we prepare for, respond to, and recover from disasters.

Todd brings a deeply relational take to emergency management. Drawing from years in the Army, firefighting, and the National Emergency Management Agency (NEMA), he reflects on how our ability to respond well in moments of crisis depends less on command and control - and more on the quality of the relationships that connect people, organisations, and communities before disaster strikes. His key tip? Invest time building trust over a cup of tea - it might be the most powerful hidden preparedness strategy we have.

Resources mentioned in the episode include:

• Todd's paper proposing the CADEM Framework
• The toolkit built off the paper, which includes templates and processes for use by organisations and communities
• Todd's methodological paper on Constructivist Networked Grounded Theory

In this episode of The It Depends Podcast, Matt and Tenille sit down with Associate Professor Emily Gates from Boston College. Emily is an evaluator, educator, and systems thinker whose work bridges theory and practice, with a focus on how evaluation can better reflect the realities of large-scale systems change.

Their conversation ranges from the limits of outcomes-focused evaluation to the importance of boundaries, perspectives, and stewardship in systems practice. Together, they explore what it means to evaluate systemic change, the role of commissioners and funders, and why evaluators may need to act less like neutral judges and more like facilitators of critical deliberation.

Emily invites us to pause, self-critique, and think differently about how evaluation can contribute to meaningful, lasting change. Whether you’re an evaluator, commissioner, or just curious about how change happens in complex systems, this conversation will spark reflection, raise challenging questions, and—of course—leave you with the reminder that sometimes the only answer is: it depends.

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These are links to the resources mentioned in the episode:

• Emily's new book co-written with Pablo Vidueira - Evaluative Inquiry for Systemic Change
• Thomas Schwandt's Evaluation Foundations: Cultivating a Life of Mind for Practice
• The Omidyar Group's Systems Practice Workbook

And while we didn't mention it in the episode, Emily shared afterwards that she routinely goes back to Nora Bateson's book: Small Arcs of Larger Circles: Framing Through Other Patterns (here's an excerpt) for inspiration and new layers of insight.

And just like that the 2025 Australian Evaluation Society Conference comes to a close! Matt and Tenille quickly debrief on the day, but most importantly we hear some thoughts and reflections from the delegates on what they took from the day - the Conference as a whole!

Also, here is the evaluation report that Jo Farmer completed that Tenille discussed. Shout out to all those clients that publish such great examples for others to learn from.

If you haven't listened to Day 1 or Day 2's episodes (6.1 and 6.2) make sure to check that out first and then come back!