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For decades, the unwritten rule in structural engineering was to stay invisible. Brad Thurman built a career proving that wrong.

In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Julie Hammond sit down with Brad Thurman, Principal and Chief Marketing Officer at Wallace Design Collective, to talk about what happens when an engineer decides the firm's brand matters as much as its work.

Brad joined the firm in 1987 as a project engineer and spent a decade in pure technical work before moving into marketing — a path that made him one of AEC's most recognized "seller-doers." He walks us through the firm's boldest move yet: dropping "engineering" from its name entirely and rebranding as Wallace Design Collective for its 40th anniversary, and why he believes human relationships will matter more, not less, as AI takes over the busywork.

In this episode

• Why being a "seller-doer" and an engineer who can also sell, became Brad's career advantage
• The story behind dropping "engineering" from the firm's name to become Wallace Design Collective
• How "dedicated to the art of engineering" quietly became "dedicated to the art of possibility"
• Wallace's retention playbook: the Glee Club, a paid volunteer day, and twice-yearly "echo meetings"
• Why AI will make relationships more valuable in professional services, not less
• What technical teams and marketing teams get wrong about each other and how to fix it

Key Takeaways

• Clients want to know who they're actually hiring before they sign on.

• Being upfront about who you are, even knowing it won't be everyone's cup of tea, builds more trust than a polished, generic pitch.

• Some of Brad's closest professional relationships are with his direct competitors. SMPS taught him that peer networks, even across rival firms, are a real business asset, not just networking small talk.

• Marketing and technical work are a symbiotic relationship. Treat them as separate silos and you lose both talent and business.

• Brad's book pick, Team of Rivals, reflects a leadership belief he still lives by: build a team with people willing to tell you no.

Resource and References

• Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln by Doris Kearns Goodwin: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2199.Team_of_Rivals

Learn more about Wallace Design Collective: https://wallace.design
Learn more about The Intangible Brand: TheIntangibleBrand.com

About Brad Thurman

Brad Thurman is a principal and Chief Marketing Officer of Wallace Design Collective, a professional consulting firm offering structural and civil engineering, landscape architecture, surveying and assessments. He joined Wallace in 1987 and is a licensed Professional Engineer. Since 1998, Brad has helped lead Wallace’s marketing and business development efforts across four disciplines and eight offices. He is a past president of the Oklahoma Chapter of the Society for Marketing Professional Services (SMPS), served as the 2013-14 President on the SMPS National Board, and served as a trustee and as president of the SMPS Foundation Board of Trustees. Brad is a Certified Professional Services Marketer, was named a Fellow of SMPS in 2009, was elected to the National Academy of Construction in 2018, and was the 2025 recipient of SMPS's Weld Coxe Marketing Achievement Award.

#WallaceDesignCollective #AECMarketing #aecindustry #EmployeeExperience #ClientExperience #SMPS #BrandStrategy

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Jamie Shibley believes the strongest businesses aren't built on transactions, they're built on relationships that are cared for on purpose, every single time.

In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Carl Winstead sit down with Jamie Shibley, CEO of The Expressory and best-selling author of Relationship-First Strategic Engagement, to explore how genuine human connection can become a repeatable business strategy. After twenty years in IT and e-commerce, Jamie discovered that the real driver of long-term growth isn't logistics or marketing spend, it's emotional equity, and she's built her agency around helping companies build it deliberately.

The conversation moves from client gifting and referral nurturing into the more surprising territory of internal culture, making the case that how leaders acknowledge their own teams is the clearest predictor of how those teams will treat clients. Jamie and Jerry also dig into why AI and digital fatigue are pushing people back toward old-school, in-person connection rather than replacing it, and why the smallest, most human gestures; a handwritten note, a phone call, a "thank you" on the way out the door. are becoming the biggest competitive advantage available to any brand.

Whether you're leading a team, nurturing client relationships, or building a brand from the inside out, this episode offers practical insights into turning care into a system without losing what makes it feel genuine.

In This Episode

• Why "systematizing care" doesn't strip away authenticity. it scales it
• How to build a touch-point strategy for clients, prospects, and referral partners
• The connection between employee experience and client experience
• Why quiet, uneventful stretches in a relationship are often the biggest warning sign
• How AI and digital fatigue are driving a return to in-person, human connection
• What leaders often get wrong about brand, and why it's more about consistency than logos
• Jamie's path from twenty years in corporate e-commerce to founding The Expressory

Key Takeaways

• Genuine connection can be systematized without becoming impersonal — the system just has to be built on real research and intention.
• The best predictor of how a team treats clients is how its leaders treat the team.
• In a world saturated with AI-generated content, small, unmistakably human gestures are becoming a brand's sharpest differentiator.
• Relationships erode quietly, in the space between projects and regular, low-effort touch points are what keep them alive.
• The strongest brands are built on consistent private acts of care, not just public messaging.

Resources & References

• Relationship-First Strategic Engagement by Jamie Shibley
• Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara

About Jamie Shibley

Jamie Shibley is the CEO of The Expressory, a strategic engagement agency that believes the key to accelerating business growth and profitability in the post-COVID era lies in your ability to create emotional equity through nurturing meaningful relationships.
A former IT and eCommerce leader with 20 years of corporate experience, Jamie went on to launch her own successful online brand where she discovered the true power of thoughtful, strategic gifting. Now, she's on a mission to help businesses reconnect on a human level and positively impact mental wellbeing by showing care and acknowledgement in meaningful ways.
Jamie is the best-selling author of Relationship-First Strategic Engagement and is widely respected as a market leader. Her work has been featured on Entertainment Tonight and Forbes.com.

Connect with Jamie Shibley

• The Expressory
• Jamie Shibley on LinkedIn

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Architecture is often thought of as the art of designing buildings, but Danny Forster sees it as something much bigger: the art of communicating an experience before it exists.

In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Julie Hammond sit down with architect, Emmy Award-winning television host, and founder of Danny Forster & Architecture to explore how storytelling shapes the built environment. Danny explains why architects aren't really delivering buildings. They're helping people imagine a future, understand how they'll experience a space, and connect emotionally to a vision long before construction begins.

The conversation expands beyond architecture into branding, leadership, artificial intelligence, and communication. Danny shares why every profession is ultimately in the business of telling stories, how AI is changing the relationship between experts and clients, and why curiosity remains one of the most valuable traits for leaders navigating uncertainty.

Whether you're designing workplaces, building brands, or leading teams, this episode offers practical insights into making the intangible tangible.

In this episode

• Why architecture is fundamentally an act of communication
• The role storytelling plays in helping clients experience the future
• How physical spaces shape culture and organizational identity
• Why the best design begins with understanding human experience
• How AI is transforming creative work and professional services
• The importance of curiosity, empathy, and clear communication in leadership
• Lessons from Danny's career spanning architecture, television, entrepreneurship, and education

Key Takeaways

• Great design is about creating an experience, not simply delivering a product.
• Storytelling helps people understand ideas they can't yet see.
• Architecture, branding, and communication all begin with empathy for the audience.
• AI is changing how experts communicate, but it won't replace the need for human judgment and creativity.
• The strongest brands are built by intentionally shaping the experiences people have every day.

Resources & References

• Danny Forster's TED Talk

About Danny Forster

Danny Forster is an architect, Emmy Award-winning television host, TED speaker, entrepreneur, and founder of Danny Forster & Architecture. Throughout his career, he has combined architecture, storytelling, and technology to help organizations communicate the vision behind the spaces they create. His work spans hospitality, urban planning, residential design, modular construction, and media, with projects ranging from Marriott developments to Taylor Swift's penthouse renovation.

Connect with Danny

Website: https://www.dannyforster.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dannyforster/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dannyforster

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Jeff Sample believes employee experience starts with a simple question: do leaders truly understand what their people go through every day?

Jeff joins Jerry Gennaria and Carl Winstead to discuss how organizations can create stronger cultures by focusing less on slogans and more on understanding the realities of work. Drawing on his background in IT, software development, construction technology, and field operations, Jeff explains why empathy, trust, and curiosity are essential leadership skills.

The conversation explores how culture influences business performance, why technology initiatives often fail when they ignore employee needs, and how organizations can create environments where people feel supported, valued, and able to do their best work.

For leaders in AEC and professional services, the episode offers practical insights into building cultures that improve both employee and client experiences.

Key Topics Discussed

• Defining employee experience beyond compensation and benefits
• Why understanding daily work matters for leaders
• The connection between employee experience and client experience
• Building trust during organizational change
• Technology adoption and employee buy-in
• Culture as a business enabler
• Creating psychological safety and accountability
• The role of curiosity in effective leadership
• Why relationships remain central in a digital world
• Retention, engagement, and employee value

Resources Mentioned

• How Big Things Get Done by Bent Flyvbjerg and Dan Gardner
• The Curiosity Shop with Adam Grant & Brené Brown
• ConTechCrew Podcast

About Jeff Sample

Jeff Sample is Senior Industry Development Manager for Trades at Bluebeam, where he works with specialty contractors and construction professionals to improve workflows and operational performance. With more than 25 years of experience spanning IT, operations, software development, and construction technology, Jeff is known for helping organizations bridge the gap between technology, culture, and business outcomes. He is also co-host of the long-running ConTechCrew podcast.

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In this episode, Jerry and Carl talk with Jill Davis, Chief Strategy Officer at Cline, about what experience really means inside an AEC firm.

Jill’s work sits at the intersection of marketing, strategy, brand, client relationships, and internal culture. She explains why a firm’s brand is not just what it says externally. It is also how people inside the firm work together, communicate, make decisions, and show up for clients.

The conversation explores how Cline has thought about growth, leadership transition, rebranding, and the challenge of making something as abstract as “experience” feel tangible. Jill also shares why relationships and professional networks matter, especially when leaders face decisions they cannot make alone.

In this episode, we cover:

• Jill’s path from marketing director to Chief Strategy Officer
• Why Cline’s brand needed to catch up with who the firm had become
• How internal culture affects external client experience
• Why architects and designers may need to think more intentionally about the business relationship side of experience
• How outside perspective can help a firm better understand itself
• Why communication is central to strategy
• Jill’s advice to build a strong professional network

Resource mentioned:

• SmartLess podcast

Where to find Jill:

• Jill Davis on LinkedIn

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Caitlyn Cook, Marketing and Employee Owner Experience Lead at ESS Companies, to explore how employee ownership reshapes culture, accountability, and brand.

Caitlyn shares how her role bridges marketing and the employee experience, and how ESS has grown rapidly while maintaining a strong sense of ownership across its teams. We talk about what it takes to build connection across regions, why culture cannot be manufactured from the top down, and how employee ownership changes the way people show up to their work.

The conversation also looks at the relationship between employee experience and client experience, why alignment between marketing, HR, and leadership is critical, and how firms can create a culture that actually holds as they scale.

We cover:
• What changes when employees are also owners
• Why employee ownership shapes both culture and brand
• How employee experience influences client experience
• Why culture is built through connection, not messaging
• The importance of alignment across marketing, HR, and leadership
• How to maintain culture while scaling a growing organization

Recommended resource:
• Radical Candor by Kim Scott

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Brittany Hodak to explore what it really takes to turn satisfied customers into enthusiastic advocates. Drawing from a career that spans entertainment, fan engagement, marketing, and consumer behavior, Brittany brings a sharp perspective on why the brands that win are the ones that create experiences people want to talk about.

Brittany explains that customer experience is no longer judged only against direct competitors. Instead, clients compare every interaction to the best experiences they have anywhere else in their lives. That shift raises the bar for every firm, especially in professional services, where differentiation often comes down to how it feels to work with you.

The conversation also digs into why leaders often separate acquisition from retention, why that is a mistake, and why every person on a team is part of what Brittany calls the “experience department.” Her core idea is simple and powerful: superfans are the stakeholders so delighted by their experience that they become advocates, refer others, and help create more clients.

We cover:
• Why customer experience is the real competitive battlefield
• How brands move from commodity provider to category of one
• What leaders misunderstand about acquisition, retention, and advocacy
• Why every team member contributes to the client experience
• How exceptional experiences naturally drive referrals
• What it means to create superfans, not just satisfied customers

Recommended resource:
• Creating Superfans by Brittany Hodak

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