We get an inside look this week from Paul Sage, founder and CEO of Ruckus Games. Inspired by Ultima 3, he worked his way up to lead designer of Ultima Online, to Borderlands 3 and more. Now working on a new project at Ruckus, we talk LEDs to 2600, Multima and when players outsmart you - this week!

This week's episode contains mentions of suicide. Viewer discretion is advised.

Episode Highlights

[00:00:00] Intro: Meet Paul Sage

[00:09:15] Founding Ruckus Games: Origins of the Studio and the Name
Paul shares how Ruckus Games was formed, why the name was chosen, and the vision that inspired its creation.

[00:15:27] Surviving in Games: Do You Really Need a Hit?
A candid discussion about the brutal economics of game development, why hits matter, and whether smaller successes can still keep a studio alive.

[00:17:30] From Borderlands to Ruckus: Building a Team During a Pandemic
Paul reflects on bringing together the original Borderlands crew, the challenges of forming a studio during COVID, and why this team made sense.

[00:21:04] Growing Up in Texas: Consoles, Coding, and Falling in Love with Games
From playing on a Merlin to coding in BASIC, Paul’s early years in Texas shaped his passion for computers, games, and Ultima Online.

[00:34:50] From QA Tester to Designer: Breaking Into the Industry
Thanks to a chance connection, Paul lands his first QA role — and through long nights and relentless work, makes his way onto the Ultima Online design team

[00:50:26] Tabula Rasa: Hard Lessons and E3’s All-Time Low
Paul opens up about leading Tabula Rasa, the struggles of working with ideas he didn’t believe in, and the infamous E3 moment that nearly broke the team.

[00:59:37] Bethesda and Beyond: Learning Structure and Gaining Confidence
After leaving Tabula Rasa, Paul joins Bethesda and ZeniMax Online, where strong processes and leadership lessons gave him the confidence to launch his own studio, Ruckus Games.

[01:02:15] Borderlands 3 and Beyond: Finding Joy and Fixing a Broken Industry
Paul looks back on the success of Borderlands 3, why the industry needs change, and how Ruckus Games is built on lessons learned to create a healthier path forward.

[1:09:04] Outro: Closing Remarks

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

David Gardner joins us this week with tales of the early days of videogames. A teenage tech prodigy, he was employee #11 at EA, ran Atari and is now a games VC. We talk Hawkins distortion fields, Atari sandwiches and when EA was hip - this week!

Episode Highlights

[00:00:00] Intro: Meet David Gardner
An introduction to David Gardner’s journey in games, from his early days to becoming a leader at Electronic Arts and later a venture capital investor.

[00:07:30] Breaking into Games: From Atari to EA to Atari
David Gardner shares an overview of his journey, from his early Atari days to becoming a key figure at Electronic Arts, to VC-ing and beyond. He also shares tips and tricks about being a "super connector" and the best way to create a network.

[00:13:55] Obsessed with Computers: The Poster Child with an Apple II
David shares how he got started with games, from knocking on doors at 12 years old, to being on first-name basis with the Atari team & being snuck into conventions.

[00:22:19] The Start of EA: Hired at 17 and Flown to California
David talks about getting hired by EA, setting up international trade for the company, and going on his first trip to London that changed his life. They also discuss the 10,000 hours rule and the role of education in growing up.

[00:33:04] EA's Beginnings: Forging a Path
David tells stories from EA’s early expansion, including culture, leadership, and publishing strategies that shaped the modern industry.

[00:42:05] Building EA's UK Branch: Translating Business Practices Internationally
Behind-the-scenes tales of creating EA's international branches, setting trends in the packaging and selling of games, and EA's growth over 20 years.

[00:49:07] The Kool-Aid from the Past: Starting Anew and Going Back Home
David touches on the culture shock of going back to the US, navigating company politics, and why he ultimately left for the UK again. They discuss leaving EA and his old life behind, finding your place, and feeling valued.

[00:56:54] Working at Atari: The Wake Up Call
David unpacks the challenges at Atari and the economics of games across decades, from boxed products to digital distribution & free-to-play. He also discusses his start in investing.

[1:05:03] From Executive to Investor: Founding London Venture Partners
The journey from publishing to investing and venture capital, and why David co-founded LVP to back innovative game studios and companies (Unity, Playfish, Supercell, and more).

[1:12:18] Outro: Closing Remarks

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

This week we talk with the founder of the Indie Megabooth and games VC Kelly Wallick. Through her indie beginnings to her investing portfolio, community has always been the core. We discuss the Indie Game Festival, spotting hits and making a great pitch deck - this week!

Episode Highlights

[00:00:00] Founding the Indie MEGABOOTH: Building a Platform for Indie Games
Kelly shares how she launched the Indie MEGABOOTH, creating a showcase that gave indie developers global visibility at major conventions.

[00:06:00] From Chemistry to Gaming: Kelly’s Unlikely Career Path
Discover how Kelly went from studying chemistry and working in science to becoming a leader in the indie game community.

[00:13:00] The Rise of Indie Games: How Developers Changed the Industry
Kelly reflects on the cultural and creative shift that indie games sparked, reshaping how players and publishers view the medium.

[00:20:00] Behind the Scenes of PAX: Scaling Indie Showcases Worldwide
Learn how the Indie MEGABOOTH expanded into a global phenomenon, partnering with PAX and other major events to spotlight independent creators.

[00:32:00] Challenges of Running Indie MEGABOOTH: Funding, Burnout, and Survival
Kelly opens up about the financial and emotional hurdles of sustaining a community-driven organization in the fast-changing games industry.

[00:41:00] Navigating COVID-19: Shutting Down Events and Supporting Developers
Hear how the pandemic forced Indie MEGABOOTH to shut down operations—and how Kelly and her team worked to support struggling developers.

[00:50:00] Transitioning to Venture Capital: Kelly’s New Role in Games Funding
Kelly explains how she moved into VC work, investing in early-stage game companies and helping founders grow their visions.

[01:00:00] Advice for Indie Creators: Community, Resilience, and Staying Authentic
Kelly offers advice for new developers—emphasizing collaboration, sustainable practices, and why staying true to your creative voice matters most.

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guest is Feargus Urquhart, founder and CEO of Obsidian, the premier maker of videogame RPGs. Having mastered 27 second pizzas he moved to testing and production of huge titles like KOTOR, Baldur's Gate and Fallout. We discuss snatching victory from the jaws of defeat with Pillars of Eternity, and when a feature is real - this week!

Episode Highlights

[00:00:00] Founding Obsidian Entertainment: From Black Isle to New Beginnings
Feargus shares how he and his former Black Isle colleagues launched Obsidian in 2003, determined to create deep RPG experiences despite industry headwinds.

[00:05:00] The Fallout Series Legacy: Storytelling That Stands the Test of Time
Feargus reflects on his work with Fallout and how its blend of player choice, dark humor, and moral complexity still influences RPG design today.

[00:12:00] Navigating Publisher Deals: Lessons from the Early Obsidian Years
Hear how Obsidian survived rocky publisher relationships, including near cancellations, and what the team learned about creative control and financial survival.

[00:21:00] Making Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II Under Deadline Pressure
Feargus explains how the team delivered KOTOR II in just 14 months—and the trade-offs required to ship under tight LucasArts deadlines.

[00:31:00] From Pillars of Eternity to Deadfire: Reviving the Isometric RPG
Discover how Kickstarter and a passionate fan base brought Pillars of Eternity to life, sparking a renaissance for classic-style RPGs.

[00:43:00] The Microsoft Acquisition: Joining Xbox Game Studios
Feargus discusses Obsidian’s 2018 acquisition by Microsoft, what it meant for studio stability, and how it opened doors for ambitious projects.

[00:50:00] Creating The Outer Worlds: Satire, Choice, and Sci-Fi Exploration
Learn how Obsidian blended sharp humor, branching narratives, and vibrant worlds to craft The Outer Worlds, a modern hit with old-school sensibilities.

[01:03:00] Advice for Aspiring Game Developers: Build Skills and Networks Early
Feargus offers guidance for breaking into the industry—emphasizing collaboration, flexibility, and learning from every project.

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guests are Rand and Robyn Miller, founders of Cyan (World) and creators of the smash game Myst. From humble beginnings in Hypercard kids' games, they made the 3D puzzle experience Myst which changed the world of adventure games. We discuss GRR Martin stories, line art to 3D and more - this week!

Episode Highlights

[00:00:00] How Myst Was Made: The Birth of a Gaming Landmark
Robyn and Rand Miller reflect on the early days of Cyan and how they created Myst—a genre-defining game that shaped the future of narrative and puzzle design.

[00:07:00] Making Games on a Mac Plus: Myst’s Surprising Development Setup
The brothers reveal how Myst was developed using off-the-shelf consumer hardware—proving that groundbreaking games can come from minimal setups.

[00:14:00] The Myst Trailer That Changed Everything: A Publisher’s Big Bet
Learn how a 90-second trailer helped convince publishers to take a chance on Myst, setting off a chain of events that would make it the best-selling PC game of the decade.

[00:19:00] Myst’s Visual Style: Why Pre-Rendered Worlds Still Hold Up
Robyn explains the creative reasons behind Myst's iconic static imagery—and why it still resonates with players even in an era of real-time 3D.

[00:26:00] How Riven Raised the Bar: Bigger Worlds, Bolder Vision
Rand discusses the development of Riven, the technical leaps it required, and how it built on Myst to deliver a more expansive, immersive player experience.

[00:40:00] Why the Myst Brothers Left the Game Industry—and What Brought Them Back
After the height of Myst and Riven, Robyn and Rand took separate paths. They share what pulled them away from games—and what inspired their return decades later.

[00:47:00] Remaking Riven in Real-Time 3D: Challenges and Ambitions
Cyan is rebuilding Riven from the ground up. Hear how today’s tools and player expectations are reshaping one of gaming’s most beloved worlds.

[01:04:00] Advice for Indie Game Creators: Start Small, Stay Honest
Robyn and Rand offer hard-won advice to new game developers: why simplicity, focus, and authenticity are the keys to building memorable experiences.

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guest this week is Seth Sivak, VP Development for World of Warcraft at Blizzard. From early years at Zynga he became Founder and CEO of Proletariat, shipping big games like Spellbreak. We discuss being an Imagineer, the three components of creative decisions and "always be pitching" - this week!

Episode Highlights

[00:00:00] Why Games Fail: No Audience, No Hype
Seth explains how several recent games failed not from poor quality, but because they launched without building an audience—resulting in commercial flops despite decent reviews.

[00:07:00] Raising $20M for Spellbreak: Inside Proletariat’s Biggest Funding Round
Hear how Seth and his team secured a major investment led by Take-Two in 2019, helping scale the studio and pave the way for Spellbreak’s development and Blizzard’s later acquisition.

[00:10:00] Defining the Product Manager Role in Game Development
Seth shares what it meant to be a PM at Zynga during the Facebook gaming boom—managing features like a mini-CEO and driving rapid iteration cycles across live games.

[00:20:00] Hug the Sloth: A “Gold Spike” Game That Taught the Basics
Learn how a quirky internal prototype helped the team test monetization, push notifications, and Facebook login—building foundational tech for future projects.

[00:25:00] Launch Ugly, Learn Fast: Why Early Testing Beats Polish
Seth recalls releasing a graybox version of Spellbreak to tens of thousands of players—proving that testing gameplay early matters more than perfecting visuals.

[00:45:00] Streamline’s Collapse: How a Twitch Partnership Nearly Killed the Studio
A promising Amazon deal turned into a disaster, forcing Proletariat within 72 hours of shutdown. Seth details how they navigated this near-death experience.

[00:55:00] Spellbreak’s Origins: From Magic Arrows to Spell Combinations
Discover how a spark of inspiration—combining magic attacks in unexpected ways—led to the creation of Spellbreak’s core mechanic and ultimately shaped its success.

[01:03:00] Discord Growth and a Viral Trailer: The Road to Acquisition
After two failed term sheets, a viral trailer and massive Discord surge helped Proletariat land an Epic Games deal—fueling momentum toward Blizzard’s acquisition.

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guest this week is Mac Reynolds, CEO and co-founder of Night Street Games, making the PvP shooter Last Flag. As manager of the band, Imagine Dragons, he learned how to find magic from the grind and now applies that to a videogame. We discuss Eagle Scouts, learning to advocate and CTF - this week!

Episode Highlights

[00:00:00] Realizing How Hard It Is to Make a Game
Mac shares how his early assumptions about game development were quickly shattered after launching Night Street Games.

[00:08:00] From Managing Imagine Dragons to Founding a Game Studio
Learn how Mac transitioned from music manager to game studio co-founder with his brother Dan Reynolds, lead singer of Imagine Dragons.

[00:11:00] Building Night Street Games: A True Family Venture
Mac discusses starting Night Street Games, working with Dan, and their love for classic developers like LucasArts and Sierra.

[00:17:00] Designing Last Flag: A New Take on Capture the Flag
Hear how Last Flag evolved from a simple concept into a competitive third-person multiplayer game inspired by hide-and-seek.

[00:21:00] Innovative Gameplay: Radar Towers, Seeker Drones & Strategy
Mac breaks down the unique mechanics that make Last Flag stand out—like territory control and high-stakes flag defense.

[00:29:00] Leaving Law for Creativity and Founding a Studio
From law school to the Grammy Awards to launching a game studio, Mac reflects on choosing passion over a traditional career path.

[00:44:00] Building a Remote, Scalable Game Team from Scratch
He explains how Night Street scaled to over 50 people, balancing internal hires with tightly integrated outsourcing.

[00:56:00] Comparing Music & Games: Creativity, Community & Joy
Mac reflects on what games and music have in common—creation, community, and the magic of bringing people joy.

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guest this week is the poster boy for educational software going massively mainstream, Phillip Bouchard. Starting in the world of mainframes he created a worldwide hit on Apple II and beyond. We talk Apple getting kickstarted and science for fun and profit this week!

Episode Highlights

[00:00:00] The Legacy of The Oregon Trail: Still Remembered 40 Years Later
Philip reflects on the surprising longevity of The Oregon Trail, a game still remembered decades after its release and played by new generations.

[00:08:00] Dysentery and Game Design: Origins of a Legendary Game Over Screen
Discover how the infamous “You have died of dysentery” message became part of the 1985 version—and why it wasn’t in the original 1971 text-only release.

[00:13:00] Building the Classic Version: Small Team, Big Impact
Learn how a five-person team crafted the Apple II version that defined The Oregon Trail, combining educational goals with entertaining gameplay.

[00:20:00] From Text to Graphics: A Full Redesign for Apple II
Philip explains how the 1985 version was a complete rebuild with new code, visual assets, and expanded simulations—leaving the original codebase behind.

[00:25:00] State-Owned Software: The Story of MEC and Minnesota’s Role
Explore how Minnesota’s state-funded organization MEC developed and distributed The Oregon Trail, influencing early educational software nationwide.

[00:36:00] Instant School Success: How Teacher Demand Took Over
After initially launching only in the home market, teacher demand led to widespread adoption of The Oregon Trail in classrooms across North America.

[00:41:00] Life After Oregon Trail: From Munchers to Broderbund
Philip talks about his post-Oregon Trail career, including work on the Munchers series and his time at Broderbund and McGraw-Hill.

[00:45:00] Writing, AI Art, and Retirement: Philip’s Current Creative Life
Now retired, Philip shares his passion for writing science books, experimenting with AI art, and staying curious across new creative hobbies.

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505