VP of Amazon Games Christoph Hartmann is our guest. At BMG he helped launch GTA and went on to co-found 2K Games and publish NBA 2K, Civilization, Bioshock and Borderlands. We discuss the upcoming King of Meat, a very fresh take on how AI can help gamedev and more - this week!

Episode Highlights

[00:00:00] Intro: Christoph Hartmann

[00:20:32] From Music to Games: Christoph’s First Break at BMG
Christoph shares how his early exposure to computers led to an internship at BMG Interactive — a move that launched his career from music into video games

[00:28:03] Learning from Sam: Building for the Future
Christoph reflects on learning from his leaders and how to run a company with one eye on the horizon — always anticipating industry shifts to stay ahead.

[00:31:32] Founding 2K Games: Building a Creative Powerhouse
He talks about the creation of 2K Games and how the studio became home to major franchises like BioShock and Borderlands.

[00:40:10] Captain Kirk, Not Spock: Leading Overnight
Christoph shares how he was suddenly handed leadership responsibilities, earning the nickname “Captain Kirk” while his second-in-command was called “Spock.” He jokes, “I’m not Spock,” but explains what it taught him about command and trust.

[00:42:12] Spotting Winners: How Christoph Evaluates Studios
He breaks down what he looks for when assessing game studios — from creative spark to execution — and when it’s the right time to buy in or step back.

[00:49:12] Embracing AI: Innovation, Adaptation, and Opportunity
Christoph discusses how new technology, including AI, could actually improve development — making gameplay more adaptive and lowering production costs.

[00:59:34] Joining Amazon Games: Betting on Live Service Futures
After a moment of career reflection, Christoph joined Amazon to explore live service games — a model he believes represents the future of the industry. He shares why he finds Amazon’s culture both exciting and rewarding.

[01:04:15] Leading Smart Teams: Managing a Crew of “Spocks”
At Amazon, Christoph leads teams full of brilliant problem-solvers — his “Spocks.” He explains how he adapts his leadership to align incentives, empower experts, and keep learning as a leader.

[01:11:57] Bridging Creativity and Business: The In-Between Role
Christoph describes himself as the bridge between creative vision and business strategy, uniting both worlds to make better games. He also teases Amazon’s upcoming project, King of Meat.

[01:16:56] Outro: Wrapping Up and Reflecting on AI’s Power Demand
Alex and Aaron close out the episode, reflecting on Christoph’s insights and joking about the future of AI — and the nuclear power plants we might need to keep it all running.

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

We're thrilled to speak with Trip Hawkins, founder and CEO EA, 3DO, Digital Chocolate and more. From childhood football strategy, to WWIII Sims, he grew to make a company of electronic artists who made legendary games. Calming Steve Jobs, hacking consoles and many firsts - this week!

Episode Highlights

[00:01:20] Celebrating 100 Episodes and a Wild Week for EA
Alex and Aaron mark The Fourth Curtain’s 100th episode and react to the breaking news that Electronic Arts is being taken private.

[00:02:31] What Happens When a Giant Like EA Gets Bought?
The hosts break down what a private-equity acquisition really means for EA, from stock prices to internal culture shifts.

[00:05:10] Founding Electronic Arts: Trip’s Vision for Creative Freedom
Trip shares how he built EA around empowering developers and treating them like rock stars — a radical idea in the early ’80s.

[00:17:44] The Apple Years: Working Under Steve Jobs
Trip reflects on his early days at Apple, what he learned from Steve Jobs, and how that experience shaped his entrepreneurial mindset.

[00:33:28] Madden, Licensing, and Building a Sports Empire
Trip talks about the birth of Madden NFL, navigating licensing deals, and why the franchise became a cornerstone of EA’s success.

[00:48:56] The 3DO Era: Ambition, Innovation, and Hard Lessons
He opens up about the 3DO console — what went wrong, what it taught him, and how to recover when innovation gets ahead of its time.

[01:04:37] The Future of Games and Trip’s Next Chapter
Trip closes by sharing his outlook on AI, creativity, and what he’s building next after a lifetime of shaping the games industry.

[01:20:14] Trip Hawkins on Failure, Resilience, and Reinvention
Trip opens up about the three “acts” of his life — the rise, the fall, and learning to rebuild after hitting rock bottom.

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

It's a one-two move with Sucker Punch's Chris Zimmerman and Brian Fleming. Now shipping Ghost of Yotei, they tell us about leaving Microsoft for Sony and becoming a gamedev powerhouse. Tales of exact pitches and being great instead of good - this week!

Episode Highlights

[00:00:00] Intro: Chris Zimmerman & Brian Fleming of Sucker Punch Productions
An introduction to Chris and Brian, co-founders of Sucker Punch Productions (Sly Cooper, Infamous, Ghost of Tsushima).

[00:08:23] “Name it Anything But Sucker Punch”
Brian and Chris talk about the founding of Sucker Punch and how the studio got its name.

[00:14:06] Early Days at Microsoft
Brian and Chris reminisce on learning how to run a business, trial and error, and early days at Microsoft.

[00:21:04] Growing Up in the “Right” Place
Brian and Chris trade stories of growing up and working in tech in the early 90s.

[00:27:54] Leaving Microsoft and Starting Sucker Punch
Chris and Brian talk about leaving Microsoft, building a team from scratch, making their first games, and landing a deal with Ubisoft.

[00:37:17] The Silver Lining
After a release riddled with mistakes, the team lands a first party deal for their next game series, Sly Cooper.

[00:47:28] Was Sony the Right Choice?
Chris and Brian discuss the advantage of having a stable, long-term relationship with your publisher and building trust.

[00:51:19] How Ghost of Tsushima Started
From an alpha that never got approval, to developing one of the fastest-selling first-party PlayStation titles and a BAFTA-winning game.

[01:01:50] The Studio Now vs. Then and COVID’s Impact
Releasing 3 months into the COVID-19 pandemic, Chris and Brian review how they adjusted their plans and how the studio has evolved over time.

[1:10:27] Outro: Closing Remarks

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505