We get an inside look this week from Paul Sage, founder and CEO of Ruckus Games. Inspired by Ultima 3, he worked his way up to lead designer of Ultima Online, to Borderlands 3 and more. Now working on a new project at Ruckus, we talk LEDs to 2600, Multima and when players outsmart you - this week!

This week's episode contains mentions of suicide. Viewer discretion is advised.

Episode Highlights

[00:00:00] Intro: Meet Paul Sage

[00:09:15] Founding Ruckus Games: Origins of the Studio and the Name
Paul shares how Ruckus Games was formed, why the name was chosen, and the vision that inspired its creation.

[00:15:27] Surviving in Games: Do You Really Need a Hit?
A candid discussion about the brutal economics of game development, why hits matter, and whether smaller successes can still keep a studio alive.

[00:17:30] From Borderlands to Ruckus: Building a Team During a Pandemic
Paul reflects on bringing together the original Borderlands crew, the challenges of forming a studio during COVID, and why this team made sense.

[00:21:04] Growing Up in Texas: Consoles, Coding, and Falling in Love with Games
From playing on a Merlin to coding in BASIC, Paul’s early years in Texas shaped his passion for computers, games, and Ultima Online.

[00:34:50] From QA Tester to Designer: Breaking Into the Industry
Thanks to a chance connection, Paul lands his first QA role — and through long nights and relentless work, makes his way onto the Ultima Online design team

[00:50:26] Tabula Rasa: Hard Lessons and E3’s All-Time Low
Paul opens up about leading Tabula Rasa, the struggles of working with ideas he didn’t believe in, and the infamous E3 moment that nearly broke the team.

[00:59:37] Bethesda and Beyond: Learning Structure and Gaining Confidence
After leaving Tabula Rasa, Paul joins Bethesda and ZeniMax Online, where strong processes and leadership lessons gave him the confidence to launch his own studio, Ruckus Games.

[01:02:15] Borderlands 3 and Beyond: Finding Joy and Fixing a Broken Industry
Paul looks back on the success of Borderlands 3, why the industry needs change, and how Ruckus Games is built on lessons learned to create a healthier path forward.

[1:09:04] Outro: Closing Remarks

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

David Gardner joins us this week with tales of the early days of videogames. A teenage tech prodigy, he was employee #11 at EA, ran Atari and is now a games VC. We talk Hawkins distortion fields, Atari sandwiches and when EA was hip - this week!

Episode Highlights

[00:00:00] Intro: Meet David Gardner
An introduction to David Gardner’s journey in games, from his early days to becoming a leader at Electronic Arts and later a venture capital investor.

[00:07:30] Breaking into Games: From Atari to EA to Atari
David Gardner shares an overview of his journey, from his early Atari days to becoming a key figure at Electronic Arts, to VC-ing and beyond. He also shares tips and tricks about being a "super connector" and the best way to create a network.

[00:13:55] Obsessed with Computers: The Poster Child with an Apple II
David shares how he got started with games, from knocking on doors at 12 years old, to being on first-name basis with the Atari team & being snuck into conventions.

[00:22:19] The Start of EA: Hired at 17 and Flown to California
David talks about getting hired by EA, setting up international trade for the company, and going on his first trip to London that changed his life. They also discuss the 10,000 hours rule and the role of education in growing up.

[00:33:04] EA's Beginnings: Forging a Path
David tells stories from EA’s early expansion, including culture, leadership, and publishing strategies that shaped the modern industry.

[00:42:05] Building EA's UK Branch: Translating Business Practices Internationally
Behind-the-scenes tales of creating EA's international branches, setting trends in the packaging and selling of games, and EA's growth over 20 years.

[00:49:07] The Kool-Aid from the Past: Starting Anew and Going Back Home
David touches on the culture shock of going back to the US, navigating company politics, and why he ultimately left for the UK again. They discuss leaving EA and his old life behind, finding your place, and feeling valued.

[00:56:54] Working at Atari: The Wake Up Call
David unpacks the challenges at Atari and the economics of games across decades, from boxed products to digital distribution & free-to-play. He also discusses his start in investing.

[1:05:03] From Executive to Investor: Founding London Venture Partners
The journey from publishing to investing and venture capital, and why David co-founded LVP to back innovative game studios and companies (Unity, Playfish, Supercell, and more).

[1:12:18] Outro: Closing Remarks

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

This week we talk with the founder of the Indie Megabooth and games VC Kelly Wallick. Through her indie beginnings to her investing portfolio, community has always been the core. We discuss the Indie Game Festival, spotting hits and making a great pitch deck - this week!

Episode Highlights

[00:00:00] Founding the Indie MEGABOOTH: Building a Platform for Indie Games
Kelly shares how she launched the Indie MEGABOOTH, creating a showcase that gave indie developers global visibility at major conventions.

[00:06:00] From Chemistry to Gaming: Kelly’s Unlikely Career Path
Discover how Kelly went from studying chemistry and working in science to becoming a leader in the indie game community.

[00:13:00] The Rise of Indie Games: How Developers Changed the Industry
Kelly reflects on the cultural and creative shift that indie games sparked, reshaping how players and publishers view the medium.

[00:20:00] Behind the Scenes of PAX: Scaling Indie Showcases Worldwide
Learn how the Indie MEGABOOTH expanded into a global phenomenon, partnering with PAX and other major events to spotlight independent creators.

[00:32:00] Challenges of Running Indie MEGABOOTH: Funding, Burnout, and Survival
Kelly opens up about the financial and emotional hurdles of sustaining a community-driven organization in the fast-changing games industry.

[00:41:00] Navigating COVID-19: Shutting Down Events and Supporting Developers
Hear how the pandemic forced Indie MEGABOOTH to shut down operations—and how Kelly and her team worked to support struggling developers.

[00:50:00] Transitioning to Venture Capital: Kelly’s New Role in Games Funding
Kelly explains how she moved into VC work, investing in early-stage game companies and helping founders grow their visions.

[01:00:00] Advice for Indie Creators: Community, Resilience, and Staying Authentic
Kelly offers advice for new developers—emphasizing collaboration, sustainable practices, and why staying true to your creative voice matters most.

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505