Why do so many of us stay in emotionally abusive relationships for 10, 20, even 30 years? In this episode, Renee welcomes back psychotherapist and author Amy Lewis Bear to talk about how we lose ourselves in a relationship, and the mental traps that keep us explaining away what’s happening.

Amy introduces the Echo Complex, the idea at the center of her new book When Loving You Means Losing Me: How to Escape the Echo Complex and Reclaim Your Sense of Self. It describes the slow loss of self that happens when a partner keeps you at an emotional distance through criticism, blame, invalidation and twisting the truth, while you keep trying to win back their love and approval. Amy and Renee talk about why a partner who can’t be vulnerable shuts down real emotional intimacy. They also explore why we stay attached to who we believe our partner could be instead of who they consistently show us they are.

Amy then breaks down three cognitive biases that keep people stuck in toxic relationships: confirmation bias, anchoring bias and the halo effect. She also shares a hard truth: the qualities that make you a good partner, like loyalty, commitment and empathy, are often the very things that keep you there.

Amy is a psychotherapist who also lived through an emotionally abusive first marriage. Learn more about her work at www.amylewisbear.com.

Want support on your own healing journey? Learn about Renee’s coaching at www.covertnarcissism.com. Her book, This Is Not Okay: Escaping the Invisible Grip of Covert Narcissistic Abuse, is available wherever books are sold. Subscribe so you don’t miss part two.

The information provided by Renee Swanson, Covert Narcissism Podcast, and CNG Life Coaching is for educational purposes only and is not to be used for diagnosis purposes and not intended to be a substitute for clinical care. Please consult a health care provider for guidance specific to your case.

This material discusses narcissism in general. Renee shares stories from her personal experiences as well as from those she has talked with for several years. Her material does not claim that any specific person has narcissism and should not be used to refer to any specific person as having narcissism. Permission is not granted to link to or repost this material to support an allegation or support a claim that any specific person is a narcissist. That would be an unauthorized misuse of the material and information provided.

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In relationships shaped by covert narcissism, “it’s fine” can become the two words you say most, even when nothing is fine at all. At the beginning, a disagreement was just a disagreement. You expect to talk it through, compromise, and find your way back to each other. What you find instead is defensiveness, blame-shifting, circular conversations, and gaslighting. Over time, ordinary disagreements start to feel like threats, and your body responds with fight, flight, freeze, or fawn.

Swallowed emotions cost your body, your voice, and your relationships around you. For anyone in narcissistic abuse recovery, this episode is a reminder that real peace isn’t the absence of conflict on the outside. It’s the absence of the storm on the inside.

Resources mentioned:

• Fight or Flight series, Part 1 and Part 2 recorded on Aug. 16 and 23, 2026(Covert Narcissism Podcast)
• Don’t Believe Everything You Think by Joseph Nguyen
• This Is Not Okay by Renee Swanson, available in paperback, ebook, and audiobook on Amazon and Audible

If you’re ready to stop carrying the storm alone, Renee’s coaching program offers support, tools, and a community that understands. Learn more at www.covertnarcissism.com.

Subscribe to the Covert Narcissism Podcast so you never miss an episode, and share it with someone who needs to hear that their peace matters too.

The information provided by Renee Swanson, Covert Narcissism Podcast, and CNG Life Coaching is for educational purposes only and is not to be used for diagnosis purposes and is not intended to be a substitute for clinical care. Please consult a health care provider for guidance specific to your case.

This material discusses narcissism in general. Renee shares stories from her personal experiences as well as from those she has talked with for several years. Her material does not claim that any specific person has narcissism and should not be used to refer to any specific person as having narcissism. Permission is not granted to link to or repost this material to support an allegation or support a claim that any specific person is a narcissist. That would be an unauthorized misuse of the material and information provided.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What does it really take to leave an abusive marriage when your savings are gone, your credit cards are maxed out, and your body is still in survival mode? In part two of this conversation, Renee continues talking with Liz Tenuto, somatic educator, author of When the Body Speaks: How Somatic Healing Sets You Free, and known to millions as The Workout Witch.

Liz shares how financial control kept her in her marriage for months after she discovered the truth, and what happened when she reached out for couples therapy and a therapist asked if she’d ever consider just leaving. Liz and Renee each share the moment they knew they were done, why it’s so hard to accept that someone won’t change, and how red flags can feel normal when you grew up around them. Liz also talks about why her body didn’t feel safe right away after she got out, how the tech abuse continued even after she left, and how posting one somatic exercise a day, at a time she could barely get out of bed, grew into The Workout Witch.

Find Liz on Instagram at @theworkoutwitch_ (DM her the word HEAL for a free one-minute somatic exercise), get her book at https://theworkoutwitch.com/book, and find her app and courses at https://theworkoutwitch.com.

If you’re on your own narcissistic abuse recovery journey and want more support, Renee’s coaching program is a great next step. Learn more at https://covertnarcissism.com. And if this conversation helped you, make sure you’re subscribed so you never miss an episode.

The Covert Narcissism Podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. Nothing shared here should be taken as professional mental health advice. If you are in crisis or need support, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

How someone treats the family dog or cat can tell you a lot about covert narcissism, and it can reveal what you’ve been living with all along. In this episode, Renee Swanson explains how a covert narcissist treats their pets: as supply, as a trophy, as something to control, and sometimes as a pawn in separation and divorce. She shares the story of her German shepherd, whose reactions confirmed what Renee had spent years doubting in herself.

If you’ve been walking on eggshells, wondering whether your reactions were reasonable, this conversation offers validation and a new kind of evidence: the witness who had no reason to lie. Renee also covers love bombing and neglect, triangulation, and practical steps for protecting your pet during narcissistic abuse recovery.

Renee’s book, This Is Not Okay: Escaping the Invisible Grip of Covert Narcissistic Abuse, is available now on Amazon and Audible. Learn more at www.covertnarcissism.com

Ready to move from understanding to action? Join Renee’s coaching program at covertnarcissism.com.

Subscribe to the Covert Narcissism Podcast so you never miss an episode.

The information provided by Renee Swanson, the Covert Narcissism Podcast, and CNG Life Coaching is for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be used for diagnosis and is not a substitute for professional clinical care. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for guidance specific to your situation. The content discussed in this podcast reflects general patterns of narcissism and is based on Renee Swanson’s personal experiences as well as stories shared with her over many years. Nothing in this content claims that any specific person has narcissism, and it should not be used to refer to or identify any specific individual as a narcissist. Linking to or reposting this material to support such a claim is an unauthorized misuse of this content.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

When we think of financial abuse, we usually picture the partner who earns the money and controls every dollar. Liz Tenuto’s story was the opposite. She was working six days a week to support her household while her husband quietly took over her bank accounts, her passwords, and her credit cards.

In this episode, Renee talks with Liz Tenuto, known to millions as The Workout Witch. Liz is a somatic educator and nervous-system practitioner who has taught more than 250,000 people body-based nervous-system regulation, and she’s the author of When the Body Speaks: How Somatic Healing Sets You Free (HarperCollins). Before she built her community, she was trying to get out of an abusive marriage.

Liz shares how her husband used a hidden remote access device to reroute her bank alerts and two-factor codes, drain her savings, and run up massive debt on her credit cards, then turned it around on her whenever she asked questions. She and Renee talk about how exhaustion can be used as an abuse tactic, what to do if you suspect financial abuse, how she planned her exit while keeping herself safe, and why “just leave” is never that simple. Liz also opens up about the daily panic attacks and fainting that showed up long before she was ready to connect them to her marriage, even with years of training in trauma and the body.

Find Liz on Instagram at theworkoutwitch.com/s/instagram (DM her the word HEAL for a free one-minute somatic exercise), and get her book at https://theworkoutwitch.com/book. Join us next week for part 2 of this inspiring conversation.

If this episode resonates with you and you’re ready for deeper support on your own healing journey, Renee’s coaching program is a place to start. Learn more at https://covertnarcissism.com. And so you don’t miss part two of this conversation, make sure you’re subscribed to the show.

The Covert Narcissism Podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. Nothing shared here should be taken as professional mental health advice. If you are in crisis or need support, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What is a narcissist, and why does covert narcissism make real closeness feel impossible, no matter how hard you try? This is part two of a two-part series on the two defining characteristics that destroy relationships with a narcissist. Part one covered the lack of empathy. This week, Renee Swanson turns to the other side of the castle door: the lack of vulnerability.

Real vulnerability means saying “I was wrong,” “I’m afraid,” “I don’t know,” or “I need you.” For a narcissist, whose sense of self depends on appearing right and in control, those words feel like a threat. So instead of vulnerability, you get defensiveness, blame, and feelings that come out sideways as silence, sarcasm, or punishment. Renee walks through everyday examples in marriage, parenting, work, and money, and explains counterfeit vulnerability. That’s the sob stories and wounded martyrdom that look like openness but are really a way of getting control.

She also explains how a lack of vulnerability destroys a relationship over time. Nothing ever gets resolved. You end up carrying all the blame, never truly knowing the person beside you, and walking on eggshells as you learn to read their moods. Finally, she shows what happens when a lack of empathy and a lack of vulnerability meet, and why your own vulnerability can be used against you. If you’re on the path of narcissistic abuse recovery and have wondered why sincere apologies and real repair never came, this episode will help you understand why the problem was never your explanation.

If you missed part one, go back and listen to “What Is a Narcissist? Part 1: The Lack of Empathy That Destroys Relationships.”

Renee’s new book, This Is Not Okay: Escaping the Invisible Grip of Covert Narcissistic Abuse, is out now. Check it out through Amazon or on her site at www.covertnarcissism.com

Ready for support on your own healing journey? Learn about Renee’s coaching program at www.covertnarcissism.com.

Subscribe to the Covert Narcissism Podcast so you never miss an episode.

The information provided by Renee Swanson, the Covert Narcissism Podcast, and CNG Life Coaching is for educational purposes only. It is not to be used for diagnosis purposes and is not intended to be a substitute for clinical care. Please consult a health care provider for guidance specific to your case. This material discusses narcissism in general. Renee shares stories from her personal experiences as well as from those she has talked with for several years. Her material does not claim that any specific person has narcissism and should not be used to refer to any specific person as having narcissism. Permission is not granted to link to or repost this material to support an allegation or support a claim that any specific person is a narcissist. That would be an unauthorized misuse of the material and information provided.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

How do you explain emotional abuse to the people around you when you can barely explain it to yourself? In this episode, the roles are reversed. High-conflict divorce coach Eleanor Marks interviews Renee about her new book, This Is Not Okay, and the eleven years of healing behind it.

They talk about the "catching a ghost" feeling of self-doubt so many survivors of covert narcissistic abuse know, the kind of abuse that leaves no bruises, why family and friends often can't see what you're living, and how to untangle yourself, whether you stay or leave.

Get This Is Not Okay at Amazon or at Renee's website www.covertnarcissism.com

Facing a divorce? Eleanor's six-week Divorcing a Covert Narcissist group starts November 9, 2026, on Zoom. Register at www.covertnarcissism.com or contact Eleanor at https://EleanorMarks.net.

Ready for deeper support on your own healing journey? Learn about Renee's coaching at www.covertnarcissism.com, and make sure you're subscribed so you never miss an episode.

The Covert Narcissism Podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. Nothing shared here should be taken as professional mental health advice. If you are in crisis or need support, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What is a narcissist, really, and how does covert narcissism quietly destroy the closest relationships in your life? The word “narcissist” is everywhere right now, used for everything from a forgotten phone call to a snappy afternoon. But real narcissism isn’t about occasional human mistakes. It’s about consistent patterns that make genuine intimacy impossible.

This is part one of a two-part series on the two characteristics that lead the way: a lack of empathy and a lack of vulnerability. Renee Swanson explains it through the image of an old castle door, bolted shut in both directions. Your feelings can’t get in, and their real self never comes out.

This week’s focus is the lack of empathy. Many survivors push back on the idea that a narcissist has no empathy, because this person seemed to read them perfectly. Renee explains the difference between cognitive empathy, knowing what you feel, and emotional empathy, caring what you feel. That difference is why the hurtful comments always landed right where it hurts most. She walks through everyday examples, in grief, illness, disappointment, joy, and childhood. And she explains how a lack of empathy, over time, leaves you lonely inside your own relationship, doubting your own feelings, and living with a nervous system that never gets to rest. If you’re on the path of narcissistic abuse recovery and have ever wondered whether your feelings were the problem, this episode will help you see clearly that they weren’t.

Next week, in part two, Renee turns to the other side of the door: the lack of vulnerability, counterfeit vulnerability, and what happens when these two traits meet.

Renee’s new book, This Is Not Okay: Escaping the Invisible Grip of Covert Narcissistic Abuse, releases October 20, 2026.

Ready for support on your own healing journey? Learn about Renee’s coaching program at www.covertnarcissism.com.

Subscribe to the Covert Narcissism Podcast so you don’t miss part two next week.

The information provided by Renee Swanson, the Covert Narcissism Podcast, and CNG Life Coaching is for educational purposes only. It is not to be used for diagnosis purposes and is not intended to be a substitute for clinical care. Please consult a health care provider for guidance specific to your case. This material discusses narcissism in general. Renee shares stories from her personal experiences as well as from those she has talked with for several years. Her material does not claim that any specific person has narcissism and should not be used to refer to any specific person as having narcissism. Permission is not granted to link to or repost this material to support an allegation or support a claim that any specific person is a narcissist. That would be an unauthorized misuse of the material and information provided.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.