This week Eric & Cobus sit down with Wu Peng, the director-general of the department of African affairs in the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs, for his perspective on a wide range of issues that are impacting relations between the two regions.

The conversation also features questions from a trio of experts in China-Africa relations including:

• Gyude Moore, a senior policy fellow at the Center for Global Development (@gyude_moore)
• Zainab Usman, director of the Africa program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace (@MissZeeUsman)
• Aggrey Mutambo, senior diplomatic affairs writer for the Daily Nation and The East African newspaper (@agmutambo)

JOIN THE DISCUSSION:

CAP on Facebook: www.facebook.com/ChinaAfricaProject

Twitter: @eolander | @stadenesque | @wupeng_mfachina

SUBSCRIBE TO THE CHINA AFRICA PROJECT

Your subscription supports independent journalism. Subscribers get the following:

1. The world's only curated China-Africa News Feed with thousands of articles archive

2. Exclusive analysis of the day's top stories about China in Africa and the Global South

3. A copy of the popular China-Africa Daily Brief newsletter delivered to your inbox by 6am Washington time M-F

Try it free for 30-days and see if you like it. Subscriptions start at just $7 a month for students and teachers and $15 a month for everyone else. Subscribe here: www.chinaafricaproject.com/subscribe

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Since its inception in 2013, Chinese government officials have insisted that the Belt and Road is solely an economic initiative and does not have any military motivations. But the BRI's civil-military distinction is no longer as clear cut as it used to be. President Xi Jinping himself called for a strong BRI security system to protect China's overseas interests, people and property.

One little-known aspect of the BRI is that much of the overseas construction, particularly ports, must conform to standards that conform to the People's Liberation Army's requirements. So, while today there's little evidence that China is leveraging the BRI for security or military purposes, there are concerns that it is positioning to be able to do so in the future should the need arise.

Daniel Russel, vice president for international security and diplomacy at the New York-based Asia Society Policy Institute, examined the security dimensions of the BRI in a recent paper. Daniel joins Eric & Cobus to discuss what he calls the Belt and Road's "civil-military fusion" in maritime, terrestrial and space environments.

JOIN THE DISCUSSION:

Facebook: www.facebook.com/ChinaAfricaProject

Twitter: @eolander | @stadenesque | @dannyrrussel

Watch a discussion with the authors of ASPI's report Weaponizing the Belt and Road Initiative: https://youtu.be/PX5PnnnYrFw

SUBSCRIBE TO THE CAP'S DAILY EMAIL NEWSLETTER FOR JUST $3 FOR 3 MONTHS.

Your subscription supports independent journalism. Subscribers get the following:

1. A daily email newsletter of the top China-Africa news.

2. Access to the China-Africa Experts Network

3. Unlimited access to the CAP's exclusive analysis content on chinaafricaproject.com

Try it out for just $3 for 3 months: www.chinaafricaproject.com/subscribe

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

For more than a decade, the dominant Western narrative about Chinese lending to African countries has focused on the purported "debt trap."

But the data tells a very different story.

David McNair, executive director of Global Policy at ONE.org, joins Eric & Cobus to discuss a new report on African debt that challenges many popular assumptions.

While African countries owe $708 billion in total external debt, only about 11.5% is owed to China. Meanwhile, private bondholders hold the largest share, often at significantly higher interest rates. More importantly, China has shifted from being a major lender to becoming a major debt collector, as loans from the Belt and Road that surged a decade ago now come due.

📌 Topics Covered in this Episode:

• The scale of Africa's $708 billion external debt and China's 11.5% share
• The $52 billion "Great Reversal" — from Chinese lending to debt collection
• Why private bondholders now dominate Africa's debt landscape
• Interest rate comparisons: Chinese loans vs. Eurobonds
• The rise of multilateral development banks and expanded lending headroom
• The failures and design flaws of the G20 Common Framework
• 7. Credit rating agencies, risk perception, and Africa's borrowing costs

Show Notes:

• Development Finance Observatory: The Great Reversal
• ONE Data: African Debt
• Bloomberg: China's Retreat From Africa Lending Turns It Into Debt Collector by Matthew Hill

Join the Discussion:

X: @ChinaGSProject | @eric_olander | @standenesque

Facebook: www.facebook.com/ChinaAfricaProject
YouTube: www.youtube.com/@ChinaGlobalSouth

Now on Bluesky! Follow CGSP at @chinagsproject.bsky.social

Follow CGSP in French and Spanish:

• French: www.projetafriquechine.com | @AfrikChine
• Spanish: www.chinalasamericas.com | @ChinaAmericas

Join us on Patreon!
Become a CGSP Patreon member and get all sorts of cool stuff, including our Week in Review report, an invitation to join monthly Zoom calls with Eric & Cobus, and even an awesome new CGSP Podcast mug! www.patreon.com/chinaglobalsouth