Before this podcast had a name, before COVID, it began as a collection of conversations with friends. This is the very first interview ever taped for this project, pulled out of the archives.

Meet Attorney Ben Gonring, a Madison, Wisconsin public defender who's spent thirty years as a shield protecting kids in juvenile court. Ben has a cartoon taped next to his desk of a prosecutor asking a judge to charge a tadpole as a frog — and it's become the lens through which he sees his entire career. This conversation is about why we must defend children differently than we defend adults, and what the juvenile system can teach us about criminal justice at large.

In this episode, you'll learn:

1. Why juvenile court exists as its own world. The legal and philosophical case for why a 12-year-old sitting in front of a judge can't — and shouldn't — be treated by the same rules as an adult.
2. Why the goal is behavior modification, not punishment. Ben breaks down what juvenile court is actually designed to do, and why he believes punishment alone rarely accomplishes it for anyone, kid or adult.
3. What three decades on the front lines of the system reveals about it. From the built-in fairness gaps kids face, to the small, quiet moments that change a kid's trajectory more than any verdict does — Ben's career offers an honest look at what attorneys can do in this system.

In addition to his legal lessons, Ben shows us why kindness is a skill that triumphs all, and how each of us can learn it, teach it, and use it more.

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