In this powerful and eye-opening conversation, Dr. Paula Swindle helps us put words to the pain many have experienced but struggled to name. A scholar, psychologist, and trauma-informed spiritual care provider, Dr. Swindle brings deep insight into how religious systems - like Vineyard USA - can engage in spiritual bypass, silence dissent, and retraumatize survivors in the name of unity or divine authority.

We talk about how spiritual abuse often masquerades as "pastoral care," why some institutions confuse conflict avoidance with peacekeeping, and how survivors are often labeled as "gossips" or "divisive" simply for telling the truth.

If you've ever been made to feel like you're the problem for questioning abusive systems - this conversation is for you.

Guest Bio:

Paula Swindle is a licensed clinical mental health counselor/supervisor, an associate professor of counseling and the Hickory campus program coordinator for the counseling program.

Swindle’s more than 24 years of clinical work includes founding and providing counseling and consultation through the Center for Healing Religious Harm, youth and family therapy, private practice, inpatient and partial psychiatric services and designing and implementing mental health programs in medical settings such as cardiac rehabilitation, pulmonary rehabilitation and oncology services. She is passionate about interdisciplinary work in medical settings.

She serves as Vice President of the Catawba Valley Association of Counselors and Therapists and provides clinical supervision services for provisionally licensed counselors in North Carolina. Her research interests include counseling in medical settings and counseling and spirituality, particularly in religious abuse. She is also a co-host of the podcast “Sacred Intersections” with local pastor Reverend Jill Isola, which focuses on the intersection between religion and mental health, particularly in the area of religious trauma and spiritual abuse.

In the season finale of Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power, we examine the final stage of Vineyard USA's transformation from grassroots revival to centralized authority. This chapter traces how real crisis - like the abuse scandal in Duluth - were used to justify a long-planned internal reorganization, giving a small group of leaders near-total control of the movement.

We explore how spiritual bypassing, gaslighting, and vague accusations of "gossip" were used to silence dissenters. Through the insights of Dr. Paula Swindle and Pastor Doug Warburton, we define these patterns for what they are: psychological and spiritual manipulation.

We honor the survivors - especially those in Duluth - and remember the young woman who lost her life. Because this story is about more than bylaws and policy. It's about people.

We conclude with a call to Vineyard's largest churches. If even a few demand change, the future could look different. But with 90% of churches already signed onto the new structure, the silence is deafening. Is this the version of Vineyard you still want?

Content Warning: This episode discusses spiritual abuse, systemic retraumatization, and suicide. Listen discretion is advised.

Call to Action:

Share this episode.

Contact your local Vineyard pastor.

Demand Accountability.

Call local and national media and ask them to pick up this story.

This is the full interview with Mandy Cavoto who, along with her husband Matt, were a part of the worship team at Mile High Vineyard in Denver, Colorado.

Many opens up about the spiritual abuse, the patterns of manipulation, and gaslighting she experienced there. She also reflects on her deep grief for the community she once loved, the cost of staying silent, and what healing has looked like in the aftermath. This conversation is raw, unflinching look at what happens when loyalty is weaponized and vulnerable staff members are left without protection or support.

Whether you've been following the story or are just tuning in, Mandy's story provides essential insight into the systemic failures explored throughout Spoiled Fruit.

Content Warning: This episode contains discussion of emotional, spiritual, and institutional abuse, as well as references to traumatic experiences within faith communities. Listener discretion is advised.

For resources go to www.spoiledfruitpodcast.com/resources

In this extended interview, former Vineyard pastor Reagan Waggoner shares his deeply personal journey from trusted leader to outspoken critic of Vineyard USA's handling of spiritual abuse, institutional accountability, and the controversial ReOrg process.

Reagan candidly discusses:

• The troubling dynamics he observed in Vineyard's national leadership
• His direct challenges to Jay Pathak and the chilling response
• The emotional toll of being investigated for asking difficult questions
• Why transparency, repentance, and reform matter more than institutional perservation

This conversation pulls back the curtain on a movement in crisis - and a leader who chose truth over silence, even at great personal cost.

Content Warning: This episode contains discussion of spiritual abuse, institutional betrayal, and emotional distress. Listener discretion is advised.

Legal Disclaimer: The views expressed in this interview are those of the speaker and do not necessarily reflect the position of this podcast or its producers. All individuals mentioned are presumed innocent until proven otherwise in a court of law.

Resources Mentioned:

• Spoiled Fruit Website: www.spoiledfruitpodcast.com
• ReOrg Memo Analysis:
• Guidpost Report Summary:

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Subscribe, rate, and share to help bring these stories to light.

Chapter 7: Crisis as Currency — How Vineyard Leveraged Collapse to Consolidate Power

Content Warning: This episode includes references to spiritual abuse, institutional manipulation, and suicide. Listener discretion is advised.

In Chapter 7, we examine how Vineyard USA used crisis—real and perceived—to reshape its power structures under the banner of reform. As major scandals unfolded in Duluth and Anaheim, national leaders capitalized on the chaos to push through a sweeping reorganization process known simply as the “ReOrg.”

We trace National Director Jay Pathak’s rise to power, exploring how his formation under leaders like Rich Nathan and Michael Gatlin shaped his leadership style—and how patterns of control, suppression of dissent, and spiritual bypassing followed him into his national role.

We also break down:

• The striking similarities between the 2020 internal ReOrg memo and the Guidepost Solutions assessment used later to justify structural change.

• How a flawed survey, a narrow assessment scope, and a potentially compromised investigator created the illusion of consensus.

• Why many pastors now believe the ReOrg wasn’t just reform—it was a strategic seizure of control, engineered by those already in power.

Finally, we ask: what happens when a movement founded on revival becomes obsessed with survival? And who pays the price when reform is built on the backs of the abused?

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• 📧 Email: spoiledfruitpodcast@gmail.com

• 📱 Instagram / TikTok / X: @spoiledfruitpod

📰 Media inquiries and tips:

Contact John Williamson at spoiledfruitpodcast@gmail.com

📄 Show Notes:

In this episode of Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power, John sits down with Tom and Adey Wassink—former Vineyard pastors who led a thriving congregation in Iowa until their decision to fully affirm LGBTQ+ people placed them at odds with national leadership.

Their story is one of love, loss, resilience, and rebirth. In this powerful conversation, they speak candidly about the painful process of being pushed out of the Vineyard Movement, the courage it took to stand by their convictions, and the unexpected beauty they found on the other side.

Tom and Adey are also the authors of the newly released book, Sanctuary: Queering a Church in the Heartland—a deeply personal and theologically rich memoir that explores what it means to create truly inclusive sacred spaces.

💬 Topics covered:

– Their call to create an inclusive church

– The reaction from Vineyard leadership

– How their congregation responded

– Building a sanctuary outside the system

– What it costs to live out affirming faith in the evangelical world

– Insights from Sanctuary and hopes for the future

📚 Grab the book:

Sanctuary: Queering a Church in the Heartland is available now wherever books are sold.

Like the music used in this episode?

The song you heard is "You Must Go" by Forrest Clay from the Recover EP. It's available anywhere you find your music!

🔗 Connect:

Visit spoiledfruitpodcast.com for more information, transcripts, and related resources.

📢 Don’t forget to rate, review, and share the show—especially if this episode resonates with your own journey.

Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power

🎧 Listen now wherever you get your podcasts

🔗 www.spoiledfruitpodcast.com

What happens when pastors stay committed to a movement that no longer wants them?

In this episode, we hear directly from former Vineyard pastors who sought to create churches that were fully welcoming and affirming of LGBTQ individuals—only to find themselves pushed out, marginalized, or erased.

We begin with Ken Wilson, founding pastor of Vineyard Church of Ann Arbor, whose decision to become publicly affirming marked a seismic shift in his relationship with the movement he helped build. We also hear from JT Meyer, Melody Winderweedle, and Tom & Adey Wasink, all of whom paid a steep personal and professional price for choosing integrity over silence.

Each of their stories is different. But the pattern is the same: pastors who tried to make room for everyone… were quietly shown the door.

This chapter explores the tension between theology, community, and control—and what it costs to be inclusive in a system designed to shut the conversation down.

Special thanks to our guests:

🙏 Ken Wilson – for his honesty, clarity, and willingness to finally tell his side of the story

🙏 JT Meyer – for his courage in navigating a public reckoning with grace

🙏 Melody Winderweedle – for sharing her journey with insight and vulnerability

🙏 Tom & Adey Wasink – for their transparency, compassion, and continued work building a faith community rooted in love

📚 Learn more about the Wasinks’ journey and their new book, Permission to be Queer and Christian: A Path to Wholeness, available now through

https://www.amazon.com/Sanctuary-Queering-Heartland-Adey-Wassink/dp/1641801859

🗣️ If this episode resonates with you, please rate, review, and share the podcast.

🎙️ Join the conversation at www.spoiledfruitpodcast.com or on Instagram @spoiledfruitpod.

🎙️ Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power – Chapter 5: “The Appearance of Change”

After years of warning signs, three independent investigations were launched—GRACE, Trusted HR, and Guidepost Solutions—each tasked with uncovering what went wrong in churches like Duluth Vineyard and Causeway Coast Vineyard, and within Vineyard USA itself.

In Chapter 5, we take a closer look at what these investigations found, what they recommended, and how the churches and national leadership responded… or didn’t. We compare the actions taken by Duluth, Coleraine, Vineyard USA, and Vineyard UK & Ireland—and ask whether the reforms put in place are truly meaningful or simply cosmetic.

We also examine the new bylaws, employee handbook, conflict of interest policy, dating policy, and child protection policy that Vineyard pastors have been asked to sign. What protections are missing? Who holds the power now? And what happens when churches—like Ann Arbor, Duluth, and Raleigh—begin to push back?

⚠️ Content Warning:

This episode includes detailed discussion of spiritual, emotional, and sexual abuse, and the mishandling of misconduct in church settings. It may also include strong language. Listener discretion is advised.

🛑 Legal Disclaimer:

The views and experiences shared in this podcast are those of the individuals interviewed and do not necessarily reflect the official position of any organization, past or present. This podcast is for storytelling and informational purposes only and should not be interpreted as legal, clinical, or professional advice. If you or someone you know has experienced abuse in a faith-based setting, we encourage you to seek support from qualified professionals and survivor-advocacy resources.

🙏 Special Thanks:

Thank you to our guests in this chapter:

Ryan Bauers, Kris Sauter, Brian Metzger, and JT Meyer,

whose honesty, vulnerability, and willingness to speak up make this series possible.

🔗 Stay Connected:

Subscribe and follow Spoiled Fruit wherever you get your podcasts.

Visit: www.spoiledfruitpodcast.com

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Exclusive content available soon for subscribers.

🎙️ Credits:

Written and Hosted by: John Williamson

Produced by: John Williamson Productions, LLC