Nancy and Sarah talk about a lightning-rod conversation between NYT podcaster Ezra Klein and award-winning writer Ta-Nehisi Coates. The two men spar on the political project of Charlie Kirk and the problem with / way forward for Democrats, and pretty much every side of the audience gets ticked off.

Nancy was underwhelmed with the conversation; Sarah was reminded of private arguments she’s had and sees more common ground between Coates and Kirk than either might like to believe.

Also discussed:

* Sarah is done with echo chambers

* Coates: “I think Charlie Kirk was a hatemonger” mmmmkay

* The animating fuel of hate is bipartisan

* The world could use another James Baldwin

* Cue Rodney King: Can’t we all just get along?

* Buckley-Vidal cage match!

* Behold the sound of Sarah’s Diet Pepsi

* We are caught between real life and floating in the cloud

* America, a country of spoiled children?

* The ‘80s comic novel that wins every season

* Sarah vs. her ring light

* Nancy’s mantra: “I disagree with you. Let’s have dinner.”

* Does Sarah look like Nicole Kidman? Her parents think so.

* Pro/con: Keith Urban’s hair

* Baby Girl as overcompensation

* That time Nancy met Nicole Kidman and became the first journalist to learn Kidman and Tom Cruise were getting divorced

* Farts, snores: Human embarrassment, discussed

* Is Portland a war zone? Nancy reports.

* Wet panties are not a political endorsement!

Plus, love for Neil Armstrong and his son, Nancy and her daughter crush on a portly CIA director, and why America has many many stories.

Welcome to episode #2 of The Sociopaths Among Us. If you haven’t listened to the disclaimer at the opening, go ahead and do that.

I’ve been wanting to write about Candace Owens since 2019, when I engaged in a very short interview with her backstage at a political event. Was she charming and poised? Yes. Also, I’d never in all my years of reporting (or, heck, living) had someone suss me up so intensely and with such speed, deciding in an instant whether to trust or not trust me, and to deflect whatever might need to be deflected.

I didn’t write about Owens then, but I kept tabs on her. I wasn’t interested in the content she was promoting; I don’t believe Owens believes in anything other than whatever will advance Candace Owens. But she was the most masterful opportunist I’d encountered (such as it is), able to hone in immediately on what was hot in the culture, to shove her way into that patch of sun and consume its energy before moving on. This “get in, get what you need, get out” is a classic hallmark of the sociopath — their marriages, business partnerships, friendships do not last long — as is the lack of conscience.

It’s hard to know why Owens is so successful, and then again, it’s not. People crave conspiracy theories, and boy howdy has she been doling them out to her 5 million+ YouTube fans. I started on this series only two weeks ago, and since then, she has doubled-down on Brigitte Macron being a man, made a post-assassination claim that Charlie Kirk changed his mind on Israel, indulged the idea of a trap door in the floor where Kirk was killed and where the shooter might have taken aim, and suggested the murder of the Turning Point USA founder was an inside job. I said in the audio that by the time this posts, she will have floated another theory. Sure enough.

Do smart people wonder why she continues to do as she does?

I don’t wonder. Owens needs our attention like a fish needs water, and by water I mean tragedy or controversy or star-shine, and if she perceives a lack of these or, heck, if she’s just bored, she’ll invent some. There are many wounds in the culture right now, wounds into which Owens can insert herself, something she’s been doing since she came onto the scene: she’s been the girl boss, the anti-doxxer (by way of doxxing; details after the paywall), anti-GOP then pro-Trump, decrier of victim culture except when it serves her to play victim. She is someone who makes an eight-part series about the president of France’s wife having a penis. (What?!) This might all be seen as lunacy, easy to ignore, a flesh-and-blood version of The World Weekly News…

… but for the fact that she is feeding on real people’s tragedies: Kirk’s assassination, the slaughter in Israel on October 7. She is vampiric, and while it’s awful to see, can you imagine how tragic it is to be Owens? What must be going on inside of her that she makes these outlandish and cruel statements and, under the guise of “just asking questions,” demands people disprove them?

The charitable among us might say, “Just ignore her.” But this woman will not be ignored. She will claw her way to staying relevant, day after day, and thanks to our overheated media environment, people you consider smart sometimes lend credence to her theorizing. Have I mentioned the screenshot of the Fifth Column boys as Megyn Kelly pondered whether some of Owens’ theories might be true?

It would be a fool’s errand to predict what Owens will say next. But I can tell you some of her origin story and how she got where she did ...

Nancy and Sarah speak with Meghan Daum, the podcaster behind The Unspeakable and author of a great new collection of essays, The Catastrophe Hour. They talk about writing, Charlie Kirk, young people casting around for meaning, and a very eye-raising report in the New York Times about a recent blockbuster memoir about MDMA-assisted recovered memories of violent sexual assault. It raises some questions!

Will this be a tipping point for the publishing industry? We discuss integrity, celebrity, Oprah Winfrey, the challenge of selling books, and how to fact-check memories in the first place.

Also discussed:

* Tylenol: Latest tool of the Resistance

* Are Reddit posts the new sad girl diaries?

* That time Meghan observed Turning Point gatherings …

* The return of Alex P. Keaton!

* Books usually don’t have fact-checkers

* Sarah’s hard lessons when editing personal essays

* Incoherence, the theme of our time

* Fabulists in the memoir genre like moths to a flame

* Toot’n Totum!

* “Nancy is Marie Antoinette.”

* The 90s are back, and if you invite us to your party, we will totally stand around the kitchen smoking clove cigarettes

* “Monchhichi, monchhichi, oh so soft and cuddly”

* The truth vs. my truth

* How is Meghan’s new book like a handgun?

* Paul Newman used French eye drops?

* NYT reader comments FTW

Plus, the John Brown Gun Club, a tragic story of literary shame, more Robert Reford love, and much more!