Jason Isbell, David Lowery and other musicians are suing Suno over claims that the AI music platform uses artists’ identities including their names, voices, likenesses and distinctive styles, without permission.

In this episode of Shmoozic Biz, copyright litigator Bob Shore joins music attorneys Bill Hochberg and Sami Kazi to unpack the case, which takes a different route from the growing number of AI copyright lawsuits. Instead of focusing on copyright infringement, the plaintiffs rely on the right of publicity, the right to control commercial use of a person’s identity.

The key legal question: can the case survive copyright preemption, or will a court rule that the claims are really about copyrighted songs and recordings?

We also discuss the industry implications: what this case could mean for record labels, music publishers, artists, managers, AI developers, voice-cloning tools and future licensing negotiations around generative AI music.

Chapters:

00:00 – Intro & Why This AI Lawsuit is Different
01:30 – Meet the Panel
02:30 – Who are Jason Isbell and David Lowery?
04:02 – "The Borg": Writing Complaints for the Press vs. Judges
07:22 – Breaking Down the CBS News Coverage & Testing Suno
11:23 – What is Copyright Preemption?
15:14 – Artist Identity & Style vs. Derivative Works
17:53 – The Advertising Exception: Mary J. Blige & Maloney v. T3 Media
23:50 – Legal Precedent: The Romantics vs. No Doubt (Video Game Cases)
24:39 – Musical Interlude: "What I Like About You" (Lawyer Edition)
28:20 – Suno’s AI Model & The 3 Arguments to Avoid Preemption
33:45 – Major Label Licensing & What This Means for the Music Biz
36:25 – David Lowery, Cracker’s "Low" Video & Final Thoughts

Key Topics: Suno AI, Jason Isbell, David Lowery, copyright preemption, right of publicity, artist likeness rights, AI music training, voice cloning, soundalike recordings, music licensing and entertainment law.

For news, views and shmooze you can use about the business and law of music, subscribe to Shmoozic Biz on YouTube and follow us on Instagram, Spotify (Video), and TikTok... links in the profile.

Bill Hochberg is a music and media lawyer at Raines Feldman Littrell LLP and he writes regularly in Forbes and other top publications on the business and law of music.

Our musical theme is "8 Church Birds" by billeeto. https://tinyurl.com/billeeto

DISCLAIMER: This program and the associated written materials are provided for informational purposes only and are not intended, and must not be taken, as legal advice on any particular set of facts or circumstances.

On this episode, Michael Dorf, founder of City Winery and the Knitting Factory, pulls back the curtain on what it actually takes to build and scale a unique live music venue without losing its soul, especially in today's challenging times. Music lawyers Bill Hochberg and Elliot Resnik have front row seats for Dorf's unforgettable tales of near-disasters and soaring successes. We hear about Prince showing up at 3 a.m. and playing until 6 a.m., after blowing off Beyonce. And Avant Garde musician John Zorn shouting curses from the stage at Lou Reed and a chatty Madeleine Albright, causing secret service agents to draw their guns and what went down next. Wild stories mix with sage advice on how to not only survive but thrive in tough times. That's what's on the menu for this episode.

Chapters

00:00 - Intro: How Prince Blew Off Beyonce
02:28 - Creating City Winery
07:07 - Intimate Venues Where Artists and Fans Connect
09:30 - Venue Design and Acoustic Quality
11:53 - Opening the Knitting Factory
14:08 - Downtown music and legendary artists
16:30 - Lou Reed Secret Service story
18:57 - John Zorn Story
21:26 - Carnegie Hall Music Education Tributes
26:09 - City Winery Expansion Challenges
28:25 - Small Venues Versus Stadiums
30:47 - Legal Perspectives on Live Entertainment
33:13 - Prince Concert Backstage Moments
35:34 - Saving Music Venues
37:57 - Streaming Music Versus the Live Experience
45:01 - Ticket Pricing at a Venue
47:19 - GLP-1s and Shifting Restaurant Habits
49:43 - Rising Artist Cancellation Rates
52:07 - Performing Rights Organizations and Venue Royalties
59:16 - Independent Venue Financial Pressures
63:59 - Final thoughts: Future of Independent Music Venues

Shmoozic Biz host Bill Hochberg is a music and media lawyer at Raines Feldman Littrell LLP and he writes regularly in Forbes and other top publications on the business and law of music.

Our musical theme is "8 Church Birds" by billeeto. https://tinyurl.com/billeeto

DISCLAIMER: This program and the associated written materials are provided for informational purposes only and are not intended, and must not be taken, as legal advice on any particular set of facts or circumstances.

In this episode, Michael Dorf, visionary music venue founder and operator, shares with music lawyers Bill Hochberg and Elliot Resnik some unforgettable tragi-comic stories about scary risks, near-disasters, and soaring successes with his City Winery clubs and the Knitting Factory venues that he founded and has operated for years. From mobbed-up Houston Street in the 1980s to City Winery’s five-star wine-and-dine-and-music experience on Manhattan's Pier 57, this conversation pulls back the curtain on what it actually takes to build and scale a live venue brand without losing its soul. Ultimately, this is a conversation about entrepreneurship, hospitality, and the irreplaceable charge of being in the room when something unforgettable happens, like when Prince, Lou Reed, John Zorn and many others blew the roof off of the place ... fun stuff.

00:00 Introduction
01:28 The City Winery Model: Music, Wine, Food & Community
06:39 Designing a Venue People Can Feel
10:50 How Technology Changed the Music Industry
22:36 Building City Winery Through Recession, COVID & Expansion
27:11 How COVID Changed Live Music Venues
49:48 The Broken System Behind Live-Music Royalties
1:03:11 Can Independent Venues Compete and Survive?
1:07:04 Michael Dorf’s Legacy: Equity in Live Music

You’ll hear:
How a tiny avant‑garde room became ground zero for downtown music

Why sound, sightlines, wine glasses, bathrooms, and old brick walls all matter to the bottom line

Why Michael is more passionate about fixing PRO royalties than selling “a f*ckload of wine and tickets”

Ultimately, this is a conversation about entrepreneurship, hospitality, and the irreplaceable charge of being in the room when something unforgettable happens and why there’s still “no app for that.”

In This Episode:

The Knitting Factory years
How Michael signed a lease on Houston Street in 1986 and turned a scrappy, avant‑garde club into a cultural hub for artists like John Zorn, Sonic Youth, Ornette Coleman, Philip Glass, and Brian Eno.


Inventing City Winery
The moment a barrel of wine in California, a need for better food and seating, and a two‑hour “all-in” night out fused into the concept for City Winery—part concert venue, part working winery, part restaurant, part private‑event space.


Designing for the senses
Why Michael obsessed over real wood, reclaimed beams, barrel staves, acoustics, lighting, and even bathrooms to create a hedonistic, intimate experience where 300 people can all feel connected to the artist.


The Prince & Beyoncé story
Inside the legendary Purple Week at City Winery: Prince circling the venue at 3 a.m., playing until nearly 6 a.m. on some nights—and blowing off a night where Beyoncé was waiting in the back room for a show that never happened.


Why 300 seats is a magic number
The capacity where an artist can see every face in the room, why that intimacy matters, and how it differentiates City Winery from arenas and stadiums.


Surviving crises and shifting habits
How City Winery navigated the 2008 financial crisis, the COVID shutdowns, artist cancellations, changing work patterns, and the competition from “stay on the couch” entertainment.


The brutal economics of small and mid‑size venues
Thin margins, rising real estate, fickle demand, and why independent venues struggle even as stadium tours thrive—and how Michael thinks about value, pricing, and experience in that environment.



Scaling without losing the soul
What it took to expand City Winery to cities like Chicago, Nashville, Atlanta, Boston, and Philadelphia, while preserving intimacy, authenticity, and artist trust.

For news, views and shmooze you can use about the business and law of music, subscribe to Shmoozic Biz on YouTube and follow us on Instagram, Spotify (Video), and TikTok... links in the profile.

Bill Hochberg is a music and media lawyer at Raines Feldman Littrell LLP and he writes regularly in Forbes and other top publications on the business and law of music.

Our musical theme is "8 Church Birds" by billeeto. https://tinyurl.com/billeeto

DISCLAIMER: This program and the associated written materials are provided for informational purposes only and are not intended, and must not be taken, as legal advice on any particular set of facts or circumstances.